meter base and main 200 amp panel advice....

hunterdan

hunterdan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Location
Morganton,NC
Just installed the meter base and main panel and just checking with any electricians here for a thumbs up.

Inspector said I could use a basic meter base with no disconnect and make the indoor main panel the first disconnect after the meter. He told me to run a 3 wire service entrance wire from the meter base to the main. I burried the ground rods and connected the #4 bare copper wire to the center of the meter base via a connector next to the neutral connection. Then connected the red and black hot wires and bare neutral. After that I connected the bare neutral wire at the main panel to the neutral bar which is bonded with the ground bar. Lastly connecting the red and black hots to the right and left of the main panel.
I won't hold anyone responsible for info. just wanting to see if anyone see's something incorrect...
 

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Looks right, as long as your panel and meter are back to back. If the panel is more than 6' from the meter it has to be four wire instead of three, meaning the ground and neutral have to be separate in the panel with dedicated wires to each. Granted, I've been in commercial/industrial and have not done this in over 15 years.
 
13bullets said:
Looks right, as long as your panel and meter are back to back. If the panel is more than 6' from the meter it has to be four wire instead of three, meaning the ground and neutral have to be separate in the panel with dedicated wires to each. Granted, I've been in commercial/industrial and have not done this in over 15 years.
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That's the kind of B.S. reasoning that prevents me from wiring my building. Is a follow the numbers system available for wiring projects to prevent such a small mistake???? I tried looking at the code book. It might as well be a Greek puzzle.
 
I can look in nec book later but I thought it was either/or. If you bond the ground and neutral at the meter then you should remove the bonding tie in the panel and have a separate ground conductor coming in with the neutral, similar to if it were being used as a "subpanel".

:edit: You might ask Duke power if they will allow it to be bonded in the meter base.
 
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Neutral and Ground should only be bonded at the main service panel. If they are bonded at more than one spots neutral return current has multiple paths to ground. Thats why you NEVER bond a sub panel.

Again I dont do resi, so I dont worry with knowing the nuances..but I do know from personal project AT LEAST AROUND HERE the local electrical inspector will require the neutral conductor to be insulated at the main service panel.

One minor point that is easy to miss if you arent electrically minded. Make sure you dont have an MLO panel. Going back to your 4/0 feeding thread you do not have protection outside you will have to have an MBpanel. There is as small detail in your drawing that makes me suspicious your have a MLO panel, but it could just be the drawing....
 
Ron said:
Neutral and Ground should only be bonded at the main service panel. If they are bonded at more than one spots neutral return current has multiple paths to ground. Thats why you NEVER bond a sub panel.

Again I dont do resi, so I dont worry with knowing the nuances..but I do know from personal project AT LEAST AROUND HERE the local electrical inspector will require the neutral conductor to be insulated at the main service panel.

One minor point that is easy to miss if you arent electrically minded. Make sure you dont have an MLO panel. Going back to your 4/0 feeding thread you do not have protection outside you will have to have an MBpanel. There is as small detail in your drawing that makes me suspicious your have a MLO panel, but it could just be the drawing....
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Yep, inspector told me if within 6' (back to back) and indoor panel bein the first power interrupt then making main indoor panel "The main"would be fine. Also, ground rods are 12" below final grade and 8' apart.

Ron, what makes you think it may be a mlo panel and how would I tell?
 
If you have a "main" breaker at the top you are fine. I would personally have the ground run into and bonded at the panel but you would be dumb not to do it exactly as your inspector said.
 
MLO = Main Lug Only
MB = Main Breaker

In layman's terms, if there is no main breaker in the panel it only has a set of lugs in it for you to connect the wires to.
 
braxton357 said:
If you have a "main" breaker at the top you are fine. I would personally have the ground run into and bonded at the panel but you would be dumb not to do it exactly as your inspector said.
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I see...I didn't draw the breaker in the pic. Thanks for clarifying

13bullets said:
MLO = Main Lug Only
MB = Main Breaker

In layman's terms, if there is no main breaker in the panel it only has a set of lugs in it for you to connect the wires to.
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Yep, it has a breaker. Below are some pics of todays progress. Just hoping that the neutral is OK without insulation...
 

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In the middle pic above it shows that this siemens panel has 3 separate lugs for the breakers. Most panels I've seen show a lug on the right then one on the left. Is this normal to have one from left hot-one from right hot with a center lug that looks like it comes off the center neutral?
 
A friend had it for 50 bucks so I picked it up. Is it ok for residential?
 
I honestly don't know. I do believe your going to have trouble with adding 220 circuits without using the middle bus bar unless maybe you use a 3 phase breaker and only use (the correct) two poles of it.
 
Ouch.

- I apologize for using confusing short hand earlier in the thread. I was typing from my phone and also forgot the audience (no offense intended there)
- A 200A main breaker panel with breakers costs <$100 at Lowe's. Think the last one I bought was $90ish...so if you didnt get breakers as well it wasnt even a cost savings.
- Im going to try and explain the dilemna you are going to be facing, but tough without a visual. A single phase panel has 2 "hots" A&B. From these two entrance hots they are distributed down the bus vertically A/B/A/B/A/B/A/B each side. To get 240V for stoves/water heater/HVAC/anything that requires 240A you need an A and a B. Or a black and a red because the two hots are "out of phase" and produce 240V potential between them. With your panel, a 3 phase panel, the distribution is A/B/C/A/B/C/A/B/C vertically down each side. The way you currently have it wired. Your B phase (middle) has no current, so every 3rd breaker slot is going to be "dead". So when you plug a 2 pole breaker onto the panel it will touch bus slots A/B or B/C and in either case you will not have 240V.

Now you could "redneck it" and use 2 single phase breakers, on A and C with a gap in the middle and it would "work"...but the breakers trips arent tied together ad it would be possible for 1 leg to trip and not the other resulting in bad juju.

You dont want to hear this but pull the panel and buy a new one.

2 others things that jump out of those pics.
1)Every wire coming into that panel required to be supported, individually, by a staple or UL listed supporting device no more than 12" away from the panel. I dont see how you will pull that off the way your wires are routed.
2) I cant be certain from your pics, but those bushings have a max fill capacity. I am 99% sure you have exceeded it in a couple cases. The concern here is that under load copper heats up and expands. If it is tight in the hole, when it expands it can either damage the conductor or cause load carrying issues due to heat dissipation.

you also made life tough on yourself by not stripping the outer jacket off first. WhHile Ive never been able to find the code reference, every inspector Ive ever dealt with will require at least (1/4)" and no more than 1" of outer sheathing inside the panel.
 
also you cant have more than (3) 12/2's through a single 3/4" hole through a wood stud.

EDIT
Ok before Braxton calls me on it, technically you can you just have to derate the conductors. 4 would require derating to below 15A meaning you'd have to run all 10A breakers.
 
A buddy of mine went through this with a retirement home someone shoved a three phase panel in...stop now If you can.

Buy the correct panel, long term you will be much better off.


Good luck!!
 
Can't quote everyone but thanks for the info, well wishes and advice.

I try and save a buck here and there when I can but this time turned out to be a loss of time and money. I went ahead and bought a new breaker panel yesterday and have removed the 3 phase one. From the info. above I'll make sure to follow code on numbers of wires through studs and at panel...plus strip insulation before feeding wires and such. I'll get my 50 back on the panel but can't get back the time and labor invested...oh well.
 
Ron said:
Now you could "redneck it" and use 2 single phase breakers, on A and C with a gap in the middle and it would "work"...but the breakers trips arent tied together ad it would be possible for 1 leg to trip and not the other resulting in bad juju.
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The rest of your post I agree with but this stuck out to me. All he had to do was put his 240V loads on C-A with a 2 pole breaker and not use B at all.

None the less, he did the right thing by replacing the panel.
 
13bullets said:
The rest of your post I agree with but this stuck out to me. All he had to do was put his 240V loads on C-A with a 2 pole breaker and not use B at all.

None the less, he did the right thing by replacing the panel.
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You are 100% right.
One of those things where I wouldn't miss it in front of me, but typing it out not sure what I was thinking. Read your response and thought 'no shit'...

I'm a dumbass sometimes , or all the time. Lol
 
It would be usable but he would not be able to use 1/3 the spaces and depending on who is inspecting he might not like it "just because". Either way it worked out because he got a "practice panel" before installing the real deal.
 
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