5 spd offroad "tricks?"

SHINTON

SHINTON

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Location
Triad area of NC
I bought the 85 yota a couple months back now and took it to URE over Thxgiving weekend.

Went great...my only real issue is learning the tips/tricks to "rock crawling" with the 5 speed.

Up till now, I have only wheeled with automagics, so in those cases I would actually do alot of driving with left foot on brake, right foot on throttle.

Give it a bit of gas and use the brake to set/hold myself and control my crawl.

...so I sorta approached this the same way with the yota, but even with 5.29s / 4low / 1st gear you will still stall out sometimes....

So here is my dilemma.

I was in Kodak area doing the "standard" thing of hitting my clutch, putting in neutral/shifting over and then left foot on brake / right foot to feather the throttle and start up the truck again...

NOW...as you can imagine what also happened was me bouncing/rolling my way back off the rock/line/etc...

would get back up to the same place, stall out again, start over....finally get tired of this and just go around bypass.

I know I COULD have been more aggressive with the throttle.. but learning the rig / trying not to break and trying to learn how to CRAWL with this rig...

I KNOW the next time I go I will be running beadlocks...I was running 18psi in the BFG A/Ts, mostly worried/not sure how easy it was to lose a bead on a 15x10 rim (35x12.5 tire)....so the LOW PSI will help with my traction considerably


But...what/how are you guys crawling? Someone was telling me to go ahead and leave the yota in 1st gear and start it... Is that something I can do now (or wait until dual cases?)

How rough is that on the starter / battery / (other stuff?)


My other issue was no e-brake...not sure how I am gonna fix that (either have to find the right size cable/setup for 87ish/wider axle...OR put on a driveshaft ebrake?)


Finally...my "last" issue was not as much stopping power as I would prefer. I am guessing this will need to be solved via, bigger booster / and prob need to look at rear disk brakes?

At times / going downhill in 4low, etc / gravity pulling, I don't think the stock brakes could have STOPPED me unless I disengaged gear/clutch...


Ok...so now that I have proven myself a noob for wheeling with a manual... would love thoughts, tips and tricks... I know some guys swear by em.

What got me thinking about this again today, I was noticing in the video from waterfall/upnover thread/ the yota there had same issue, he would get set on the fall and then engine stall out...by the time he was ready to restart he had rolled all the way off the obstacle again?
 
Hand throttle took care of alot of my issues.
 
snappy said:
Hand throttle took care of alot of my issues.
Click to expand...


Yep, hand throttle and some crawler gears or a doubler, then you no longer have to ride the clutch. All my rigs have been 5 speeds and even though they are more difficult to use in the rocks I definitely prefer them. Get the t-case ebrake if you are going to run one, that would be the best, some use a lockline but they are not legal, the t-case ebrake at least seems legal as they still pull the handle and it still gets tight.
 
snappy said:
Hand throttle took care of alot of my issues.
Click to expand...

I actually had just installed one the day before and I LOVED it for rolling down the trail... not sure how much I trust it/for "crawling?" Are you guys actually bumping up the gas via hand throttle or just using it for starting the rig again or?

My memory is getting hazy but I THINK what I was doing is left foot would hit the clutch, right foot the brake and I would end up rolling back SEVERAL feet / off the obstacle (and then just go ahead and do a normal startup)

I think it is instinct for me to nail the clutch when it stalls...? (Because until I hit it I suspect I wont move...or roll back...and maybe starting in gear from right there would be ok?)
 
Hand actuated E-brake will free up your left foot for the clutch. That's something I always wanted in to do in the CJ. Use to use that all the time when stopped on inclines at red lights.

Lower Crawl ratio

If all else fails, you can get used to Left foot clutch, Right foot toes Brake, right foot heel for gas. just enough brake to hold you still, let the clutch out slowly until you start moving then move your right foot to the gas, but that can get tricky until you get proficient at it.

Or don't stall in the first place.:D Feather the clutch enough to keep rpms up, when tires start turning ease the clutch on out. Of course, Then you risk burning the clutch up. Which in turn brings you back to needing a better crawl ratio.
 
Are you trying to drive through your brakes on the down hills? Is your '4low' 4.70s? or just regular stock low range? If it stock, id start there that will help your situation a lot.

As far as the jurkyness of a stick, well thats why people switch to autos. You will have a greater appreciation for a good stick driver when you see one.

I clutch with left (like normal) heal on the brake (so you have good pedal pressure) and tow the gas as needed. Or use the hand throttle as mentioned, some people just use a high idle type switch to idle up then simple use clutch and brake as needed.

Practice practice practice..
 
yager said:
Are you trying to drive through your brakes on the down hills? Is your '4low' 4.70s? or just regular stock low range? If it stock, id start there that will help your situation a lot
Click to expand...

What I am talking about is say the downhill section of RML (on your way out) there are a couple steep places there where I was in gear, not touching gas, and braking... and not sure I could have "stopped" it while going down the steep part.

..I could be wrong but I think I was fighting gravity AND the drivetrain and by switching out of 1st gear into neutral I could have stopped in the same place / situation...(just my guess)

So I am guessing more brake boost/volume and disks would give me greater stopping power (to brake despite being in gear)

I guess the reason I am thinking about this is there is times when all of a sudden you NEED to stop or get REALLY slow and may not want to get out of gear.

My tcase is stock... am reading / and debating to myself the infamous, duals before 4.7, or 4.7 and then dual.... but long term goal is dual (2.2x + 4.7) tcases for the super super low

3.93 x 2.28 x 5.29 = 47.4 (current)

3.93 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 97.7 (buy 4.7 gears for tcase) OR
3.93 x 2.28 x 2.28 x 5.29 = 108.1 (dual stock) OR...heh

3.93 x 2.28 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 222.8 (yeah baby...)

My guess is I will end up with whatever I find locally / built that I can swap in
 
Sam, I have never wheeled an auto, always a manual shift. Practice will lead to control.
My brakes suck in my Jeep, I use the gear reduction for both crawling up, and controlling my down hill. I don't have a hand throttle, but I do have a choke type throttle cable that I can bump up the RPM's a bit when needed. Either a doubler, or 4.7's will help you tremendously. both will be awesome. when I am on a hill, rock or what ever, and need to hold it, I find the friction point and hold it in place till I am ready to go. Then it's just a matter of the right amount of skinny pedal and the right amount of letting off the clutch.
If you are not going to run beadlocks, I would recommend 8" wheels, you can probably get by with half as much air in your tires.
I have seen many people crank the rig in gear, but you WILL burn up a starter doing it if you don't have enough gear reduction.
The Yota you were referring to in my waterfall thread is a very good friend of mine Andy. I think he would roll back more so to level out to crank(carb) more so than a control issue. HE is running 5:29's, 4.7's and 36" TSL's with a carb. What I have seen is the Toy carb does pretty darn good at higher RPM's, but slow go on an incline is the weaker trait
 
I just hold the brake and let off the clutch until it starts pulling. No throttle needed... TBI350 though, not a Toy 4 cyl. Might be a bit of difference.
 
When i had my old jeep with SBC sm456/np205 and 4.09 gears

it was
Left foot clutch
right heal brake
right toes gas

also with the 6.4:1 granny I could start it in gear.
 
Some typical upgrades that may help.
- Propane (for those extreme angles)
- Slotted/ newer style rotors. (front)
- Front calipers from V-6 Toyota/4Runner (larger pistons)
- 1" Bore master cylinder
 
i've got a 5sp and just recently installed crawler gears. stock tcase gears prior to that on 37's. i was burning the clutch on a regular basis prior to the gear install and since, not as bad, but still some.

crawler gears will help quite a bit, but still won't eliminate the potential stall and excessive clutch wear at times. i've gotten decent at using all three pedals at once, but a hand brake or throttle would be the deal.
 
My Willys has a hand throttle in the dash under the choke so I bump the rpm's up when I'm climbing hard. I also use it to pull myself along the trail and put my feet up on the cowl to cool them off.My floor pans get hot.

Try putting a foot actuated starter in the mix and you do what I call the "Uwharrie shuffle" on those up hill choke offs.

I've got good gearing in my gear train: 3.19 tranny,2.47 transfercase,5.38 axles but with such a small weak engine and 31 inch tires,I can't crawl obstacles.It's either go or go around.
 
Sam, Upgrade your positive and negitive battery cables to 2gauge or better, use good copper crimped on ends on the starter end use the heat shrink with the sealer in it to seal all connections and find a good quality battery terminal ends for the battery.

Use the starter to begin a climb after a stall, you'll save your clutch as well.

YES it is possible to burn up a starter, but having adequate power to it is a key factor in keeping the possibility to a minimum.

The starter used is also a key factor. there were 2 starters available from TOYOTA for the 22R/RE engines, a 1.1kw for the 2wd trucks and cars, and a 1.5kw for the 4wd trucks and Runners.

you want the 1.5kw, identifiable by looking at the end cap of the motor, round tin cap with 2 square indents, the 1.1kw has round indents ( but still a good starter )

DO NOT use the Vatozone aftermarket SHIT, they are junk copies or piss poor rebuilds. spend the $$$ for a Toyota starter.

i've done this on 2 different Trucks I've had, and NEVER had issue with the starters save for the contacts in the solinoid wearing out ( easily replaced and available at the dealer IF you know what to ask for) you'll have this happen reguardless when you have 250k plus miles. This is most usually the issue when a Toyota starter dies ( click, click,click, start)

I always carried a spare when I was wheeling, as anything is possible.

as an aside, I did a test to see how many amps my starter would draw while climbing a steep hill in low range 1st gear ( with 4.10 gears) I pulled 250 amps for about 8-10 seconds before the engine started and started pulling. this was a moderaly built and loaded '85 Runner on 33's. ( with stock 4.10 gears)

This is where using quality parts made itself known, the first time I tried this test, I MELTED the standard replacement top post parts store terminal, melted in half right where it necks down between the post and where the cable is clamped in. I had to use a pair of visegrips and a rag ( to insulate the pliers from the hood) to hold the cbale to the battery post so I could get home.

I ended up going to a stereo shop and getting some nice brass terminals that allowed me to connect the starter and the winch to the top post. Ran that way till I got an Optima ( before Johnson Controls got hold of it) Never had an issue after that.

And for the naysayers ever seen the " clutch cancel " button on the dash of 86 and never manual trans Toyota trucks ? this is EXACTLY why it is there, RTFM, I says it in there (though I don't think they had huge tires in mind when they wrote the manual)
 
SHINTON said:
1. 3.93 x 2.28 x 5.29 = 47.4 (current)
2. 3.93 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 97.7 (buy 4.7 gears for tcase) OR
3. 3.93 x 2.28 x 2.28 x 5.29 = 108.1 (dual stock) OR...
4. 3.93 x 2.28 x 4.7 x 5.29 = 222.8 (yeah baby...)
Click to expand...

You will NOT be happy with options 1 or 2. Option 3 will be better but my guess is you won't be satisfied there either. In order to krawl, option 4 is your only choice.

I start mine in gear all the time with 200 and 105 krawl ratios.

As stated above, a larger bore master cylinder will help your braking issues. Made a world of difference when I upgraded mine.
 
If the truck is carbed, and doesn't have good crawler gears, you've found you issue. Propane or fuel injection + low gears = problem solved. I've been meaning to install a hand throttle in my jeep, but just haven't 'needed' it yet.
 
My old yota ran 35's and 5.29's. It wasn't enough to crawl so I put 4.7s in a single case and problems were solved. My carb wasn't much of an issue after that until the steepest inclines.

Another option is to contact LARRY SMITH. I'm sure he probably has the answers to all your questions and I KNOW he has alot of time on his hands:D
 
Since I was there on the "shake down"...

The gearing & carb both appeared to be working pretty good


IMO, the main issue was unfamiliarity in both the rig *AND* wheeling a rower! I'm sure the 22R's "power band" :rolleyes: didn't help matters, when you've previously wheeled only V8s & I6s. Consequently, you were rolling the front tires *against* a rock and *then* trying to power into it = since the front is open, 1 tire spun, the other did nada. I tried to explain the need to get on it a foot or so BEFORE touching the rocks, but that's when your feet got flustered and you took off backwards!

I say get a hand throttle to eliminate the "3 legged shuffle" when you're pukered and get some additional "stick time" before jumping into duals. Not that you won't need the extra gearing with the 4banger, just saying you need more practice with that rig, learning the differences of the "new" engine & tranny.

Tater & I both thought you did great on the rest of the trails!:driver:
 
Something else to remember when you hit the clutch you take alot of load off the driveline and the sudden backlash can sometimes cause damage to parts. Alot of times if I feel I need to stop in situations I'll just run the truck till it stalls and then when I need to go instead of pressing the clutch I'll use the clutch start cancel to get going again.
 
I run a 78 f150 with the np435 4speed with the 6.69:1 "granny" gear. I added a hand throttle made from a seven speed bike shifter, and a drag race style electric line lock solenoid. The hand throttle is mounted just below the shift knob and the knob has a momentary button built in to actuate the line lock.

Most of my crawling is done in granny gear, and my transfer case is twin sticked so I put it in rear low as soon as I come off the pavement, and kick the front in and out of low as needed. If I get in a jam and the starter cant pull me out of it in gear and crank the engine, then I hold the brake turn the line lock on and press the clutch to get it going, then I get back into gear, slip the clutch and release the button to start moving again.
 
Most of these cases it sounds like once the gearing is low enough, the clutch isn't really used unless I need to go into reverse.

That upgrading my electrics (cabling / battery / good starter) and the LOW gearing will allow me to start in gear.

Adding the driveline e-brake will help too (rear is spool, so unless something is broke it shouldn't move)


As Caver Dave mentioned, ALOT of this is practice...and hitting the clutch at all (so I could "roll back a foot to bump it" ) was causing me to end up rolling back several feet usually.

I think THAT has to do more with brakes not holding me in place... which I am sure is partially MY fault (not holding tight enough) and partially "not enough brakes"


SO that being said...same folks... when you do find yourself in the need to roll back 6" and then bump it...the clutch is getting used obviously...possibly reverse....

But I imagine a difference is you are NOT then slipping the clutch but fully reengaging it (since gearing means no stalling) and then releasing pressure on the brakes to allow rig to move fwd again?

( I think I have the theory...just gotta educate the feet )


No front locker combined with 18psi was a pretty big factor too, hopefully next time I will be 6psi or LESS and when I "hit the rock" the tire will give some and pull/have traction.


Thx for all the help so far, some excellent comments!! I DO have the hand throttle, just will have to figure out how much I "trust it/myself" using it when perched 1/2 way up a rock vs my right foot/pedal.
 
Driving

Once you install the 4:70 gear set, all of you clutch/brake questions/problems will go away. Just drive it like your are going to Wal-Mart. I would purchase an E-brake(back of T/case) from Trail Gear.
The drum brakes will evetually stop working due to water and mud accumilation. I still run the stock brake master cylinder and rear disk and have good braking. The secret to a good pedal is tight shoe adjustment andgetting the air out of the rear brake lines, it is a pain. I have been planning to install a Chevy truck master cylinder, but haven't yet.
 
rockcity said:
learn to operate the gas and brake pedal simultaneously with the same foot and you'll be fine
Click to expand...

bingo! Left foot is for clutch, right foot for the other 2 pedals. I hold the brake with the ball of my right foot while my heel is planted on the floor below the go pedal. I roll my ankle over to get some RPMs while letting up the clutch, then let go of the brake and climb on.
 
Back
Top