Buggy layout

Chuckman

Chuckman

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Location
Huntersville
OK everyone, how about a few solicited opinions. I am building a buggy with yota parts just for fun- no comp in mind, just inspired by boredom. I have gathered tons of pics and observations, but I need hard numbers. I am designing this thing on the PC right now, but what looks good on paper rarely works as planned. I am curious as to everyone ideas related to these issues. Wheelbase, COG, lateral engine location in chassis (such as distance from bellhousing to CL of front and rear axle), belly clearance, and overall height. Like everyone, I have watched in awe as some dinky rigs have climbed effortlessly up stuff that built trucks cant, simply because they had a shorter / longer wheelbase or some other critical characteristic.
This toy will be using a propane injected 22r/5spd/dual case/coiled/full hydro steering/ 36" tire/ 2 seater. Just in case that makes any difference.

also some 'been there, dont do that' would be cool
Thanks
 
your on the wrong bb, there are only a handful of peeps with tube chassis on here, and a smaller number that built them theirselves.

Most of the crap is theoretical, wheelbase req'ts change from day to day, obstacle to obstacle - pick one that you are comfortable with and stick to it. Im not getting into anything else, ill let the webwheelers argue about that.
 
X2. Just take a few hours and look at Pirate. there is a ton of info over there.

Do you have the toyota frame???

if so, run the Hendrix Formula Toy chassis, its cheap, easy, and works very well.

Rob
 
gee guys, I figured this would spark some interesting content. guess not. sorry I asked. guess I have to go back Pirate.

buying a kit buggy if you have the equipment/time /skill to build one? BORING.
 
but, if you have the skill, then why ask us???


And John is right. Most here are not hardcore about the buggies and such. I mapped mine out and such and think I will be pleased with it. I moved the motor and such back about 10" than normal even though I'll suffer a little leg room. This enables a better balance with my buggy. I built mine long (118" wheelbase) so I can have room for tools/tool box area and a place for my dog to ride and maybe a kid in the future. Its not small by no means. At full compression front and rear, I have about 60% anti squat on the lowest setting in my adjustable link mounts. At ride heighth, I plan on having about 105% anti squat

At full compression in the front, the CL of the axle is about 40.5" from the bellhousing/engine mount surface. Again at full compression front and rear, the CL of the crank/trans input/T case output shaft is roughly at 24" from the ground.

Overall heighth right now at full compression is about 6'. I've stil got to jack up the air shocks 8" and add the correct sized tire (46 versus the slick 38.5 thats on there right now). So, that adds 8" plus about 4" for tires, which yields a final ride heighth of about 7' or so, give or take.


I only suggested the Formula Toy chassis because its made to fit on top of the Toyota frame and accomodiate from a 36-38" tire. There is plenty of fab work to keep you busy with that setup. Also, you can change things around by adding a 4 link front and rear versus the leaf springs. Or, just look at the chassis and make something similar. Its not hard, but its def. not easy, especially on your first one...

Good luck
 
Well...if you are looking for just commentary, I can do that...if you are looking for EXPERT commentary, please ignore my musings! :)

Biggest thing I have seen/liked about buggies is the ability to have almost a 'flat' driveline. What I personally have thought about is building a "transmission/tcase" tunnel similar to the H1, to allow the seats to be lower, thus lowering the total height.

I think most of the modern buggies are doing this, but some have subframes instead?

Other random thoughts: weight distribution, I would really look to see what is working out there...i think buggies can get front heavy pretty quickly. (Moving the engine backwards/again my tranny tunnel is one of the reasons I think that might help)

Wheelbase...I used to think Samurais had it all, they went over everything. But now I think that had alot more do to with weight...and buggies are superlightweight too. Now I wonder if a nice LONG wheelbase combined with super low weight isn't the ticket.

I was talking with the black/yellow S-10 truggy at DPG and he is like 130inches? He has found "Lots" of places the Wb has helped and only a very few that he really thought it hurt?

I forget which tires you mentioned...but I know Greg/BigWoody swears by the red label BFGs now and I have saw that truggy of his do some amazing stuff.

Sam...still wheels a YJ...but dreams truggy dreams...Hinton
 
IMO, front heavy is good.. I like how it climbs.

wheelbase IMO is very dependant on tire size & belly clearance.. 130" on 36's will leave you hung up everywhere... 130" on 42's with 25" under the belly might not...
 
and, if you keep a long wheelbase, I'd recommend 4 wheel steer. its expensive, but helps a lot with a longer wheelbase IMO. Thats one reason why I'm putting it on mine, and its nice to be a little different than most...
 
I didnt mean to be hasty in my initial post. But not too many buggy builders on this forum if your asking for advice. And as for the other information, your COG, wheelbase, engine CL is not something you can read about and then mimic, its what works with your scenario and what results you want produced.

If you want some information, ill can offer a little. I build my chassis' to mimic a 'cab forward' design. This allows me to mount the engine farther back for better weight distribution and a more 'snub' front end for better visibility also reducing overall chassis length, it also lets me raise the engine a hair to have a more slim subframe allowing me to lower the chassis height providing more ground clearence and a lower COG. Engine location and CL differs from engine to engine and wheelbase to wheelbase, I dont mount a SBF in the same location I mount a 454, you have to accomodate and again comes in preference, I can mount a SBF centerlined over the front axle and have a crappy weight distro, or move it back some elingating the wheelbase splitting the weight, either or its what results you want.

Here is some chassis that I have designed and built:
000_0002.jpg

100_1050.jpg

100_1011.jpg
 
johns buggy is a good example of a solid simple deisgn. Im sure anyone whos done one will say their first one wasnt perfect. You really don't get a good feel for ALL the stuff that goes into it until you've been involved with a build first hand. All the stuff you mntioned is great, id strongly suggest actually talking to people and viewing thier rigs first hand.

I don't agree that since there arn't many buggys there arn't people capable of doing it. I had a zuke buggy, it wasn't what i wanted. So i built a 1ton jeep.

My advice would be to plan and stick to that plan. To get a better feel about what you want/need. Set your parts all out and then start building. The worst thing i did with my zuke thing was NOT have the main components on hand to do proper layout. That lead to some redos. And decided if you want a buggy or not, a half cab deal is great, but anything less than full on is a compromise in every aspect of the design and you will kick your self later on..

and ill ad that every buggy you look at is differnet. You may not like all of it or would do one part different. Some like differnet things. You havnt mentioned engine position, radiator position? moon buggy ? conventional? If i had to make a new one id probably go for more of a laid back seating position or inline seating setup

and you havnt mention what your budget will be...
 
Thanks guys, I knew you had some info in you. BTW, specifics on what I had planned are listed in my original post.
Anyway, I do use Pirate extensively in my research. However I feel that ring is heavily influenced by Western conditions (dry rock), not the Souths conditions of mud and slickrock. That is why I asked on this BB. Believe me, I have reasearched this to no end. But for OUR conditions, things are greatly different.
I took about 500 pics at the Carolina Crawlin this august and have templated all of the rigs to figure out their geometry. I have even laid out all of my projects parts and have put them into a solid modeling software program that will allow virtual builds of all types of drivetrain setups, cage design even realistic suspension cycling. Did I mention that I am anal about all of this stuff?! (read -I work for the Japanese in the automotive industry, they train me do all this research, its my job)
What I am truly after is the type of info that people have done and would not do again. Like for instance, back in the day, I built ($$!) a D30 for my CJ instead of just bolting in a D60. Sounds stupid right?, but back then hardly anybody thought like that. I was just overkill.

more particulars: side by side seating based on a 'car' not upright- tunnelled drivetrain, centered winch (Terry Morefield (sp?) style, flat belly, regular coils (not $$) and rear radiator. complete with full ragtop, cage exo style around that. It gets cold if you get wet in Boone!

Just thought I would try to drum up a little info from the locals, thats all. Remember that we do this for fun... 0.001% of us does it for the money!
Peace out- Chuckman
 
Well when I do it again.......im gonna make sure to elevate the frame forward of the pass compt and narrow it also.This would allow me to run the entire buggy lower.......I have almost proved that lower buggies work good too......kind of moonbuggy style mixed with trail machine.ALso for a non comp buggy I would definitely leave room for tools/spares etc.......ask me how I know!
ai3.photobucket.com_albums_y54_buggybuilder_100_9956.jpg
 
you said you're running coils???


I bet you'll change your mind to at least air shocks once you start fabricating...

I did. if you want soft springy coild, I have ford aerostar minivan rear coils that I took off of mine...


Rob
 
yes coils. I did it on my CJ and am very happy. the reason? price. I have a grand total of $350 in the whole upcoming project and my budget is not to exceed $1k- that includes the first fill of propane. I know, I know, trick coilovers / airshocks (blah blah) but coils work fine. period.
I am doing this whole project as a jab at myself for owning a very high dollar CJ. Granted, (IMO) my AMC dollar pit is SWEET, but there was a point at which I figured that I was just modifying something to do what it was never intended to do. So, from an engineering standpoint, just design it for the specific task to start with. Hence, a complete low dollar yota (thanks Mike), lots of freeby tubing (thanks Joe), and a 'come haul it off' forklift (thanks Eddie) yields all the goodies to do it.
I need to source some seats and wheels, lots of Miller time (the blue kind) and I'm rolling. Gotta wait till after deer season though. I do have my priorities.
 
If you can build a buggy for $1000, you will have set a new world record.
 
Hard to imagine not having but a grand in my whole machine. As booty fabed as my Jeep is, That was exceeded with the first mod, not counting what my initial peurchase price was! Many mods later, several rebuilds from minor to major, I would cry if I actually sat down and itemized what I have in it. Keep us posted on the progress
 
the first buggy you buil;d will not be the last!
 
like I mentioned before, I have experienced the trauma and uncontrolled wallet hemorraging of the 'jeep thing'. that is the whole point of this. I dont need to build this to go wheeling, have no specific completion timeline, so therefore have been accumulating freebies for a year or so now.
I have a little edge on most guys, in terms of freebies. My uncle is the Nash county, NC 'scrapman' and has given me tons of GOOD free cool stuff from the local repair shops (read: about 5 sets of spare F/R drivehsafts, a literal pile of air compressors in various styles -Sanden & York, spare axles, spare carriers, the free donor forklift, etc). the only problem is that the wheels / seats he gets are all mismatched. Oh well. He even was PAID to haul away a NEW 454 BB FI motor complete with everything on it with a rod through the pan. It had good heads, new injectors and on and on. RV (not truck) warranty replacement. That happens all the time. Its just amazing what people throw away.
My other buddy that supports my habit is a facilities manager for a race team in Mooresville. I went and got free tube from a shop that was relocating, they did not want to move the 20' sticks of steel, they bought new/delivered to the new shop, so I was happy to relieve them of that burden. And on and on. So I may not hit my target, but the goal is to be about 98% recycled. The new stuff will be brake lines and new hoses etc. and lots of Newcastle and welding wire!

Chip- ask Matthew I. about this, and about hooking up over T'giving saturday
BTW he was riding with me at the fun caravan.
 
have you ever seen the Tellico Cabins buggy? 2600 lbs toyota 22r dual cases 37 krawlers 1/4 elip rear not sure of front suspension yota axles very minimal tubing . we rode with this guy at tellico and he walked the dog , truly bad ass imo. I'll see if I can dig up a picture of it .
 
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