Diesel or Gas???

saf-t scissors said:
Either way, you were purely making up that shit about the 454. It didn't even make as much power as the 6.5. :shaking:
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You're obviously the one making up shit. Do your homework next time. :shaking:

6.5TD:
Displacement: 6.5L (396ci)
Bore & Stroke: 4.05x3.82 inches
HP @ RPM: 190 @ 3400
Torque @ RPM: 385 @ 1700

The Vortec 7400 (L29) big block V8 engine uses sophisticated technology to provide impressive horsepower and torque output, and long intervals between recommended service. The big block mill puts out some 290 horses at 4000 rpms and an impressive 410 lb.-ft. of torque.
 
TD numbers are more on the order of ~220/430 stock for the later ones. Looks like you posted an earlier one... or maybe an NA motor or something.

And no, I'm not going to go look them up. I've driven both... DD'd a 454 of that era for a while, in fact. Had to push it at least twice. Not exactly what you'd call reliable transportation. You can mat it from a stop and it pulls pretty well, but around 3000-3500, you'll want to back out of the throttle, let it upshift, and mat it again. It would spin to 4500 or maybe a bit more, but there really wasn't much up there. But at 6mpg loaded, you only got 200 miles on a tank.
 
I posted a 6.5 turbo, (hence the TD suffix) the one you said the 454 didn't make as much power as.
 
rocktoy4me said:
Thats true...but how many 454 do you see with 200 -300 - maybe even 400 thousand miles without a major rebuild. And yes, you could by a crate motor or even a cheap rebuild kit...but thats time wrenching on the tow rig instead of the the trail rig.
Just a though.
Seth
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Dammitt I am going to ahve to argue against my own point.

WHile this is true, one thing that is often left out, is that a 300 or 400 thousand mile diesel has almost 100% had at LEAST 1 new IP and LP. which cost as much as a replacement motor.

I think it all comes down to what you want. I want a diesel, dammit :flipoff2:

BTW I have heard rumors of a place to get smokin deals on Cummins parts...
 
rocktoy4me said:
Thats true...but how many 454 do you see with 200 -300 - maybe even 400 thousand miles without a major rebuild. And yes, you could by a crate motor or even a cheap rebuild kit...but thats time wrenching on the tow rig instead of the the trail rig.
Just a though.
Seth
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Yager just bought one with over 300k on it.

If ya WANT or NEED a diesel, that's cool... If you're gonna DD it, OK.. All I'm saying is that they're not the bargain they used to be 5 years ago, that's all.
 
sure drag me into it :) I really didn't feel the need to jump in with that, as I feel its an exception not the rule, but mine has 370k truck.. Having owned a few different trucks. I truly like the GAS truck I have now. It's not a barn stormer but it's very comfortable ride and yet just big enough to do what i need to do. Parts are cheep. I paid $1900 for the truck.

And while I just dumped $800 in a complete front suspension, steering, shocks, brake hoses etc. I can't complain. Cause with that kind of mileage most people cringe.. Why ? The body and frame is still good rust free, tires had 70% tread, brakes all new.. The rest can be or has been changed/replaced....

454 - The 454 isn't the end all be all. As Shawn mentioned, the TBI units pretty much run flat at about 4k. They are very intake and head restricted.. BUT good news is that is what probably contributes to a good long life. And if your geared properly you shouldn't need to spin over 4k anyway..

Aside - IMHO that is the one benifit over the older diesels is having a wider RPM range to operate. Yes the new ones do rev higher and that makes them better at highway..

454 - I bought the truck figuring the engine would pop soon. To my surprise it looks like its got a few more years in it, so im running it.. BUT if/when this thing goes, i will likely NOT rebuild it.. I will try to find a 6.0L to swap in. Or at a minimum a 350/5.7L vortec. The 454 could easily be matched with a stronger 5.7/6.0l and the next gear lower (4.10s) and with a few parts and a chip, yet still offer better DD/unloaded use. AND with many 6.0L out there parts supply will be plentiful for a long time..

My advise.... I'd look for a 94-95 (or newer) 8600#+ package truck (8lug) get the 4L80e and a 350/6.0L w/ extended/crew cab for longer WB and roll w/ it..

Diesel resale - that the hype you've been sold and your now repeating :) The only way I would buy into that, is if I were to buy a truck with FULL documentation as to its maintenance history. Without that, I would assume its been driven with the old mentality of "if it ain't broke don't fix it - it's a diesel it will run forever" which means, that not only did you pay more for it, but you will pay more to fix it and repair it..




Honest question for everyone ?

How many would tear into a gas engine and RR the heads, crank, new head gaskets, what ever.... with 100% confidence you'd have it back running again with only minor expected issues along the way?

How many would do the same with a diesel ?

This isn't to say you need super power skills to do any of it.... just if...
 
Alright, here's my real world kind of comparison.
I had an '01 Chevy 2500HD, Ext'd Cab, 2 wheel drive, 6.0L and got 11 MPG towing
Now have an '06 CTD, 4 Wheel Drive, Ext'd cab, 18 MPG towing.

Although Diesel fluctuates, (sometimes less, most more) say at a 10% premium over gas, let's do some math. Current gas price say is $2.35, Diesel 10% premium (.235 cents) so say $2.585. Also, if you're buying a new truck, you should at least be able to get 15% off of sticker. So, the $6500 is more like $5525.

Let's say you put 80,000 miles on it.
Gas - 80,000 / 11 = 7272.7 Gallons Used X 2.35 = $17,090
Diese' 80,000 / 18 = 4444.4 Gallons X 2.585 = $11,489
Add $11,489 + $5525 = $17,014

You can argue about maintenance, but c'mon, how much of a difference? You have 2 different schedules and amounts.

I personally don't care if someone buys a gas or diesel, the diesels are just more economical, real world. To me 80,000 miles is not a "looooooong time".

If you don't have the cash to outlay on a diesel, don't. There's a reason most delievery trucks are diesel, diesels are prevelant in Europe and becoming bigger here.

My advice, buy something newer with lower miles Gas or Diesel. No sense in wrenching on your offroad junk and your tow vehicle. Pretty soon you'll just be walking. Plus, you start looking at the tow rating on anything before the Heavy / Super Duty Craze, you will be very unimpressed.
 
Must be all downhill towing or something, I don't even get 18 empty! Granted, my foot is in it quite a bit.

Guess I need one of them new Ram's that everyone except you are complaining about the mileage on... ;)
 
The only time I had bad mileage was when I had coolant leak. No mods, 6spd. Bought in Feb '06, won't let the dealership flash the new updates.
 
93JXJ said:
The only time I had bad mileage was when I had coolant leak. No mods, 6spd. Bought in Feb '06, won't let the dealership flash the new updates.
I appreciate the fact that you get defensive. That's cool.
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6-speed certainly helps things.. mine's an auto.

At the end of the day, it's mostly about what people WANT, and then try to justify it with numbers to balance both halves of the brain... I fully admit that with mine..

Now if we compare OLDER vehicles like the original topic started out as, things get more interesting Wear and tear factors in more, mileage is different, rebuild costs factor in, etc. Somehow they always digress into talk about the brand new 30, 40, 50k+ trucks.
 
Well, hell, if I read the first post I would be too tired to give my long winded response. The only thing that worries me with the older trucks is the tow rating - I don't and haven't tried to understand how they jumped from one year to the next. I know the frames got beefier, but the "number" jumps were incredible.

Rich is right, I've justified mine to myself. And the other one was paid off and pulled great.
 
Your math is all well and good, but your attempting to show the benefits by realizing the total fuel savings up front. Referencing the savings over the entire 80k isn't realistic. I run the numbers based on my average yearly use. I may choose to invest my money elsewhere... Also using the local prices isn't realistic, diesel prices fluctuate greatly all over as high as .50-.60 in NY at times.. (Trust me that adds up)

So using a more realistic 14mpg towing with the diesel and 10mpg towing with the gas (to be honest i did get 11.5 dragging my camper home, but i drive slow), I averaged 10k per year. (i have a 30mpg DD)

Gas - 10,000 / 10 = 1000 Gallons Used X 2.35 = $2350
Diesel - 10,000 / 14 = 714.28 Gallons X 2.585 = $1846
Diesel - 10,000 / 18 = 714.28 Gallons X 2.585 = $1436 <-your 18mpg while towing..

So you 'save' $914 dollars in fuel costs operating your truck the same 10k.. (@18mpg) and $504 (@14mpg)..

Now run those same #s on a used vehicle, with gas/vs diesel.
 
I weighed in all these options when I was looking for a tow rig. I was on a tight budget and the tow rig was not going to be a daily driver, but at the same time I wanted a nice low mileage truck to take the ladiez out in :huggy: . I bought an 02 chevy 2500 ex cab 4x4 of course, with the 6.0, and I love it. Sure my buddies pulling with there diesel rigs will blow right by me, but I can run the speed limit. I dont know about how long itll last but who cares, the 12000 I saved by going with gas will put alot of trannys in. I guess if I were pulling everyday or using the truck to work with I would have bought a dodge or ford diesel but it mainly just sets in the driveway collecting dust. Oh and mileage is 16 empty 10 towing my cj5.
 
Rich said:
Guess I need one of them new Ram's that everyone except you are complaining about the mileage on... ;)
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I don't get 18 mpg towing, except if its a real light load. With 11.5k trailer weight, I got about 12 mpg. Unloaded on my last trip to Bristol, TN, I got 20 mpg with 315/70R17 tires and a stock engine & auto tranny combo. And that was round trip with some driving around Bristol on city streets. Even the towing mileage was with the bigger tires that put the engine out of its prime operating range (i.e. down shifted more).
 
jeepn-jason said:
I weighed in all these options when I was looking for a tow rig. I was on a tight budget and the tow rig was not going to be a daily driver, but at the same time I wanted a nice low mileage truck to take the ladiez out in :huggy: . I bought an 02 chevy 2500 ex cab 4x4 of course, with the 6.0, and I love it. Sure my buddies pulling with there diesel rigs will blow right by me, but I can run the speed limit. I dont know about how long itll last but who cares, the 12000 I saved by going with gas will put alot of trannys in. I guess if I were pulling everyday or using the truck to work with I would have bought a dodge or ford diesel but it mainly just sets in the driveway collecting dust. Oh and mileage is 16 empty 10 towing my cj5.
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The 6.0 / 4L80 combo is my favorite gasser set up. Parts are cheap and plentiful (bless you Chevy and your parts interchangeability!), and going 200k to 300k miles before an engine swap is easy if you take care of it.

Yeah it's no modern oil burner, but one hell of a small block in my biased opinion!
 
Why is everyone multiplying towing MPG by the number of miles driven in a year. Is the post about someone that tows everyday (10,000 a year)....then definitely get a diesel. If not then the math to support the cost savings should be adjusted. Maybe 2000 miles towing a year and 8000 not towing????

Scott
 
The number of miles in a year was just a number/factor to use to better see any savings one would have over the other. You could use 6 months or 1 month (which I have done) to compare any long term diesel savings to any potential vehicle loan payment.

The same with the 10k per year... If you only tow 5k per year, use those numbers. I make several trips to NY both towing, and semi loaded, and usually just count those as 'towing', as I realize other factors usually contribute to reduced mpg on those trips (higer speed, bulky or heavy loads etc..)

When you buy a diesel either new or used, you usually pay more upfront. Depending on your use, it can take many miles/years to recoup that money back in fuel mpg savings. Economics 101 = opportunity cost, if my money is tired up in a diesel engine now, I can't use it else where..

Basically look past the numbers for the specific points being made, there are a few from several people.. All part of the equation.. And bottom line as mentioned, buy what you want :) BTDT
 
I just switched from a 97 3500 CTD to an 06 2500 Hemi and Ive got to say I preffer the hemi. Its more fun to drive as a DD and tows just as good as the diesel, granted I havent gotten it into the mountains yet but power wise on flat land it suits me just fine. The MPG is pretty close unloaded, and just a little bit diferent when towing. For my money I would buy a newer gasser rather than trying to swing an older higher mileage diesel.
 
Damn, the people I know with Hemis won't go wheeling because the fuel mileage is so bad it's too damn expensive to go. Maybe you have a higher ratio rear end or something.
 
Yeah I get about 13-14 empty and just under 12 with my landscape trailer and tractor. My cummins got horrible mileage for a diesel, only about 15 on a good day and about 10 pulling a trailer with a full size rig on it. I had an 04 hemi and it got terrible mileage around 10-12 empty, but it was WAY faster. So something about the new one is different.
 
TheGeneral said:
Yeah I get about 13-14 empty and just under 12 with my landscape trailer and tractor. My cummins got horrible mileage for a diesel, only about 15 on a good day and about 10 pulling a trailer with a full size rig on it. I had an 04 hemi and it got terrible mileage around 10-12 empty, but it was WAY faster. So something about the new one is different.
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My CTD gets 15 mpg in town, and 20 mpg unloaded on the highway. No wonder you don't see any difference between your 1 ton and the Hemi. Glad it works for you.
 
I know that this is an old thread, but... (and yes, I'm SURE it's only temporary) - now that diesel is cheaper, it makes an easier argument. Better mileage and a better price for fuel.
:flipoff2:
 
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