Donation Of Vehicle For FS To Patrol Uwharrie OHV Trails

J.C.

J.C.

Volunteer
Moderator
Joined
Apr 18, 2005
Location
Greensboro, NC
After a long talk with Ranger Walker yesterday, during the FS workday, she again stressed the need of the FS for a trail capable vehicle to patrol the OHV trails.

As I noted in another thread in the ATV section, I witnessed numerous OHV rigs operating off of designated trails. The FS has no way to patrol the trails and therefore no way to enforce OHV trail laws.

Unfortunately, with the way our bureaucratic government operates, inability to patrol and enforce, regardless of the reason, could be a valid reason to close the trails.

I would like to propose that the NC4x4 community acquire, modify and donate to the Forest Service, a vehicle capable of traversing any and all OHV trails at Uwharrie, for the purpose of patrolling the trails and enforcing FS regulations, toward the goal of keeping the Uwharrie OHV Trails open for our use!

Something along the lines of an XJ/ZJ with 33" MTs and dual lockers should fit the bill.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc are welcome.
 
Debra has been asking Southern to provide a vehicle for years.

We've always agreed, but in the end she couldn't figure out how to get it into her fleet.

Who's name will it be titled in? Who will insure it? Who will maintain it? Etc.

The law enforcement officers do not report to Debra. If they drive it, who is responsible for the vehicle and the liability?

If she can clearly answer these questions...please let us know.
 
I know it's been brought up before but how about organizing a day,during the off season to open the park?Charge everyone $20 to get in with the FS being the only benefactor.Then get one of the many very talented shop's on here to get involved and build it with volunteer help,obviously at a cost close to just what they would have in parts in it.I would think that one day would generate enough money to buy a Cherokee and Modify it.
 
Why should we have to donate close to $8000 for a vehicle and to outfit it, for them? Forest Service, is that federal or state? Either one, could afford the money for this, not us!
 
What's wrong with a decient running $2,000 XJ to me thats really great all around trail rig, ride 4 + gear, cheep and easy to fix/keep running.

I don't see why the 4x4 community couldn't obtain and keep something like that in good running condition.
 
Dave Logan said:
Debra has been asking Southern to provide a vehicle for years.
We've always agreed, but in the end she couldn't figure out how to get it into her fleet.
Who's name will it be titled in? Who will insure it? Who will maintain it? Etc.
The law enforcement officers do not report to Debra. If they drive it, who is responsible for the vehicle and the liability?
If she can clearly answer these questions...please let us know.
Click to expand...
yep...this.

I am all for it, and there are a million ways to ''come up with the money''...but what about the above questions?...
these problems were the deal killers on this idea 4 years ago.

John, do you know if the officers are allowed to ride/drive/operate any vehicle they choose, for trail patrol?In other words...if you handed an officer the keys to the Dodge, would their boss allow this?

This may be a dumb question and completely out of place, but what kind of actual trail driving experience do the officers have?

How about a ride along program? One where the officers ride with one of hopefully alot of volunteer drivers?

I am sure that there are plenty of folks that would offer some passenger seat time to any officer that wanted to go on trail patrol.
 
Dylan W. said:
How about a ride along program? One where the officers ride with one of hopefully alot of volunteer drivers?
I am sure that there are plenty of folks that would offer some passenger seat time to any officer that wanted to go on trail patrol.
Click to expand...

I can't help but wonder if Dylan's idea wouldn't work better. Once a dedicated vehicle has been identified by the offenders they simply keep watch for that vehicle and go back to tearing up once they get out of sight of it. If the officer was riding with various drivers/vehicles it would be similar to a State Trooper in an unmarked car... offenders would never know just when or where the law enforcement might be.
 
I have carried two FS personell with me years ago but not a Security Officer. But I do like Dillon's idea, seems to cover the bases at all angles.
 
All she has to do is ask...All police and law enforcement groups can get FREE vehicles straight from the Military. Montgomery county and all local PD's have them...Next time you talk to her have her contact a Police Chief of the Sheriff's office. They can lead her in the right direction.
 
I'm with Dave on this one.
Wasn't all these questions raised when we talked about getting a piece of construction equipment in the FS hands over at URE?

and why when LEO Foote doesn't report to Debra.... or does he?
 
Might be out of place asking this being new and all but I will ask anyway.

I saw several pretty stock atv's and lightly modded rzr's go right up and down supposedly the hardest trail @ ure. Why do they need a rig? Why not atv's? Hell i watched a vw bug get 1/3 of the way up with only 2wd lol. The blm in California provides modded tj's or back in the day or xj's to those guys. When I worked for the spotters for the smoke jumpers during summers in school we had xj's, white with green stripes and fs logos. Just wondering why a rig would have to be publically provided is all.
 
yeah, im a bit bewildered here as well. I think it would be cool to build a rig for the FS, but....even here in forsyth county the sherrifs dept has a mil-surplus dodge that they run up and down the power line trails and other illegal wheeling areas.

As far as experience needed to traverse URE...please. My GF did it on her first wheeling trip ever.

besides, if any officer did have trouble, after a few ride alongs he'd have it figured out.
 
A couple things.

1.)There is only 1 LEO out at Uwharrie. Officer Foote. And to my knowledge he does at the least communicate/report to Debroah in some compacity.

2.)The same questions that popped up during the equipment thread need to be addressed. Who would keep the vehicle in good operating condition, who would own it/insure it etc.

3.)There used to be Forest Service riding along at one point and time. To the point people knew what vehicles they were usually riding around in (a jeep comes to mind). This would be our best bet right now, but rotate the vehicles used so people don't figure out who is riding in what.

I will be talking with Terry Savery this Friday, so I will ask a couple questions. But it seems the idea would to put the main focus now on ride alongs, as we work on a vehicle or some other bigger solution in the background.
 
Why not a four wheeler? or a Razor.
Easy answer.... cost for one.
Add to that a rig such as a 4runner or a Cherokee would allow the officer to patrol in most all types weather, not many would want to go out on a rainy day, a very cold day or for that matter a really hot day.
Legally accessing the trails without having to have a truck or trailer to get it to a trail head.
Ability for them to carry more stuff they may need, from lunch, to water and so on.
If the details of who's name to put it in and so on get worked out, I am betting that a suitable rig could be had quickly, modified and outfitted to suit the needs.
We have many clubs that are donating time as well as individuals, to maintain the trails, I see no reason whatsoever why this particular vehicle couldn't be adopted as well. And a club or clubs take care of the maintenance and upkeep.
As far as raising money we have clubs such as Carolina Trail Blazers, Core, Rock Corps, Big Dixie Boggers, and many more who are great at fund Raisers. This would help aid in the purchase, and build of something that would not only get them around, but built to suit the needs and something that they would be proud to be seen in.
Until these things can be resolved I also think Dylan's idea of a officer riding with a group, would be an excellent idea.
 
FWIW, this would be a one time DONATION! As I see it, the vehicle would be GIVEN to the FS to do with as they please. Once is is out of our hands we would have nothing to do with it. They would handle maintenance, insurance, tags, whatever, etc.
 
JC said:
FWIW, this would be a one time DONATION! As I see it, the vehicle would be GIVEN to the FS to do with as they please. Once is is out of our hands we would have nothing to do with it. They would handle maintenance, insurance, tags, whatever, etc.
Click to expand...


First thing we need to give the Forest service ,is a shiny new pair of scissors. So they can cut thru all the red tape that will inevitably stall this project...I hate to sound like a negative nilly, John, but there is alot of stupid red tape..involving ''fleet'' maintainance, ins..etc...the list is long.

How can we fix these problems?
 
Dylan W. said:
I hate to sound like a negative nilly, John, but there is alot of stupid red tape..involving ''fleet'' maintainance, ins..etc...the list is long.
How can we fix these problems?
Click to expand...

JC said:
After a long talk with Ranger Walker
Click to expand...

JC said:
Once is is out of our hands we would have nothing to do with it. They would handle maintenance, insurance, tags, whatever, etc.
Click to expand...

:driver:
 
A ride along is fine with me. Im a legal and responsible motorist on and offroad. I was a trail leader at several camp jeeps and a couple of jeep jambo's - had a sheriff dept with me for a few days, a film crew camera guy, etc ride along before. Throw me a trail pass and id be in. Jeep doesn't run for free. So there could be reciprocal situation there. So said rig would be available for "on call" situations for recovery, etc? A sort of trail AAA as well as enforcing the rules.

Just don't know why they can't purchase something themselves. The red tape thing, I see it too. It's the govt were talking about after all. As far as riding around in inclimate weather, not to be a dick but it's part of the job. It's not like they signed on to work in an office. It's "forest service" not desk jockey service. I didn't work the fire line expecting to sit in the command truck and drink coffee. Anywhere I've ever wheeled from texas to pennsylvania they had atv's riding around and it was ok for them, be it fs or private land.
 
i would have no problem donating my time and jeep for a ride along...it benefits both me and the forest service...i get trail riding time and they get to patrol the trails
 
Here is Ranger Walker's response to some of the questions that have been asked about the proposed trail patrol vehicle donation.

John, thanks for the support. I will answer what I can of the other questions. Please forward to the person or group as you see fit.

Who's name will it be titled in? Who will insure it? Who will maintain it? Etc.

It turns out getting the tags is not a problem. The govt is self insured. The district will maintain it will our trail fee funds.

The law enforcement officers do not report to Debra. If they drive it, who is responsible for the vehicle and the liability?

Law Enforcement is a "stove pipe" organization and my LEOs supervisor is in Asheville. He will be able to use the vehicle as well as the other Forest Protection Officers (rec techs). The Forest Service will be responsible for liability.


I know it's been brought up before but how about organizing a day,during the off season to open the park?Charge everyone $20 to get in with the FS being the only benefactor.Then get one of the many very talented shop's on here to get involved and build it with volunteer help,obviously at a cost close to just what they would have in parts in it.I would think that one day would generate enough money to buy a Cherokee and Modify it.

I am not willing to open the trails during the winter closure as we need that time to get heavy work done and let the trails sit for the wet months to settle.

The ATV's they ride on don't transport them through the trails? Or are they no longer @ URE?

We still have the one atv but most of my folks do not like riding alone or riding it all day. These trails can beat you up on a atv.

Why should we have to donate close to $8000 for a vehicle and to outfit it, for them? Forest Service, is that federal or state? Either one, could afford the money for this, not us!

The Uwharrie is federal and we could use the trail fee funds to purchase a vehicle. However, there will then be less money to use for other needed trail work. Have you seen the new trail bridges? We spent close to $200,000 for those. Dickey Bell was funded with Economic Stimulus money, Rocky Mtn was grant and trail fee funds. There is also the issue of buying a fleet vehicle with project money and the restrictions that the agency has on modifications of a fleet vehicle. We would not be able to get a trail ready vehicle because of the safety concerns and restrictions.

John, do you know if the officers are allowed to ride/drive/operate any vehicle they choose, for trail patrol?In other words...if you handed an officer the keys to the Dodge, would their boss allow this?

There are limits to what I will allow my folks to operate due to safety concerns. If the vehicle were lifted too high, had a very stiff suspension and steering, other mods that made it hard to handle on pavement, would be a concern. These types of mods would not work. But otherwise, yes we can operate any make/model.

This may be a dumb question and completely out of place, but what kind of actual trail driving experience do the officers have?

We do put our employees through 4wd training, for example, to operate the Kubota they have to take and pass a written and driving test administered by a state approved examiner.

How about a ride along program? One where the officers ride with one of hopefully alot of volunteer drivers?

I have had several volunteers offer seats, but my folks usually do not accept. Not exactly sure why. I, on the other hand, will usually take the seat if I am patrolling the trails. Too much walking to get to the back trails.

All she has to do is ask...All police and law enforcement groups can get FREE vehicles straight from the Military. Montgomery county and all local PD's have them...Next time you talk to her have her contact a Police Chief of the Sheriff's office. They can lead her in the right direction.

I can try this avenue.


I'm with Dave on this one. Wasn't all these questions raised when we talked about getting a piece of construction equipment in the FS hands over at URE? And why when LEO Foote doesn't report to Debra.... or does he?

See previous response about LEO. The agency made this decision to change that organization about 10 years ago. Out of my hands. But I do have a close relationship with my LEO. And we have Forest Protection Officers who do report to me.

NC state surplus has cherokees on their site most of the time. They should be able to acquire one through their or a federal site with similar vehicles

Who should I talk to with the State?

Why do they need a rig? Why not atv's? The blm in California provides modded tj's or back in the day or xj's to those guys. When I worked for the spotters for the smoke jumpers during summers in school we had xj's, white with green stripes and fs logos. Just wondering why a rig would have to be publically provided is all.

See response to atv question above. The rigs in California were purchased under the green sticker program which is a gas tax that comes back to National Forests with ohv trails. We have a similar program in NC with the RTP grant, but the state will not let us buy equipment or vehicles with those funds. If we get a fleet vehicle with federal funds (budget funding) then we cannot make any modifications. Thus the vehicle will not be able to navigate the trails.
 
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