EVERYONE MUST READ THIS *** If you want to continue to Wheel at Tellico

BRUISER

BRUISER

silent.. but deadly
Moderator
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Location
Raleigh
Hello Board Members,

I am writing this Post in hopes that we as a Group of Commited 4x4'ers and outdoor enthusiasts can Step up to the plate and let our voice be heard.

If Not Know, When?

I know some people hear read the NC Land Issues and Updates Section, and I know some have never even clicked on that section.

So I am bringing this topic to Everyone's attention

Please read this Post by "GSW"
"It is in regards to Closing TELLICO"
http://www.nc4x4.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227222&postcount=11

Link to entire post is:
http://www.nc4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28615

If you have been or have never been to tellico it does not matter we need the help of everyone to assist us in keeping one of the BEST OHV Trail systems open.

What do you need to do?
you need to read the entire article and then read the second link in the post and send them your comments on the Closing of Tellico.

But PLEASE think about what your are saying before you send it. We need as many letters as possible, and they need to written well.

Thank you
 
we asked the rangers there about this when we were there a couple of weeks ago..they said lower2 would be gone, but hadn't heard of any other closures...who knows.
 
As a trout fisherman, there's one point that many may not be aware of, (and I'd like to see results of a comparison study on this) when it comes to sediment in Trout waters. As Fishermen wade through these silt and rock bottom rivers, we disrupt the ground. This sends CLOUDS of muddy water down stream. Have you ever been fishing with someone and try walking downstream of them. It's like driving thru heavy fog. How is it that My Jeep up on the mountain could cause more muddy water that chokes off brook trout than a wading fisherman directly in the water?

Something stinks and it's not dead fish.

Food for thought?
 
Can someone post the email addy for responses? I sent to the addy listed in the first (PDF) link and got:

This is a delivery status notification, automatically generated by MTA svatlsmtp001.r8.fs.fed.us on Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:33:55 -0400
Regarding recipient(s) : comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahalatusquitee@fs.fed.us
Delivery status : Failed. Message could not be delivered to domain <fs.fed.us> .Failed while initiating the protocol. <[('comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahalatusquitee@fs.fed.us', 550, 'comments-southern-north-carolina-nantahalatusquitee@fs.fed.us... No such user')]>
MTA Response :550
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there are more wheelers than trout killers...why dont we have a stronger lobby representation? It sounds to me that the fishermen are complaining that there arent enough trout to kill and they are looking for some one to blame so they dont have to stop killing them!
 
BigRedB2 said:
there are more wheelers than trout killers...why dont we have a stronger lobby representation? It sounds to me that the fishermen are complaining that there arent enough trout to kill and they are looking for some one to blame so they dont have to stop killing them!
Click to expand...

I am sorry to say but we the wheelers do not have more a stronger group then the trout fisherman.. they have huge amounts of dollars and large numbers of people.

The question I still have is why is are there no Large corporations like Skyjacker, super lift, tera flex, rubicon express, BFG, etc stepping up to support the Sport that keeps them in business..

I know they sell to others and other industries but damn giving tires, winches, parts, etc at off road events does not help keep us all in the sport..
 
mbalbritton said:
As a trout fisherman, there's one point that many may not be aware of, (and I'd like to see results of a comparison study on this) when it comes to sediment in Trout waters. As Fishermen wade through these silt and rock bottom rivers, we disrupt the ground. This sends CLOUDS of muddy water down stream. Have you ever been fishing with someone and try walking downstream of them. It's like driving thru heavy fog. How is it that My Jeep up on the mountain could cause more muddy water that chokes off brook trout than a wading fisherman directly in the water?

Something stinks and it's not dead fish.

Food for thought?
Click to expand...

Im very hesitant to post this, but...

Walking in the streams does in fact stir the sediment, and disrupt it. But it does not change the overall stream depth or sediment load.

Run-off/erosion does add to the sediment load. Decrease overall stream volume, reduce O2 content, etc. etc. etc.

HOWEVER.....
the real argument is whether or not our activities actually increase erosion rates.

BigRedB2 said:
there are more wheelers than trout killers...why dont we have a stronger lobby representation? It sounds to me that the fishermen are complaining that there arent enough trout to kill and they are looking for some one to blame so they dont have to stop killing them!
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2 terribly wrong points here guys.
#1 Trout Fishermen outnumber wheelers easily 20:1 We dont compare in the scope, volume or history.
#2 This is not an argument about creel volumes. The vast majority (estimates range in the 1500:1) of NC harvested trout are stocked. This stocking is paid fully by the licensing and trout stamps paid for by the fishermen. This argument is about the impact to NATIVE populations.

not trying to rain on anyone's parade or discourage any help, but it is CRITICAL to our efforts that we combat them with not only courtesy and professionalism but also ACCURACY. Sadly 1 inaccurate statement in a 500 word letter, can discredit all the other thoughts inside.
 
BRUISER said:
I am sorry to say but we the wheelers do not have more a stronger group then the trout fisherman.. they have huge amounts of dollars and large numbers of people.
The question I still have is why is are there no Large corporations like Skyjacker, super lift, tera flex, rubicon express, BFG, etc stepping up to support the Sport that keeps them in business..
I know they sell to others and other industries but damn giving tires, winches, parts, etc at off road events does not help keep us all in the sport..
Click to expand...

Also I had this same conversation with the Regional VP of sales and marketing for BFGoodrich less than 2 months ago.

Turns out there were serious discussion among BFG, Warn, and at least 1 other company about starting a full forced campaign to "Save Tellico" however thee almighty dollar apparently won out. It turns out that in their opinion there are more consumers who are not wheelers than those that are, and there was strong sentiment that they would be seen as ecologically irresponsible to defend the "anti-environment" stance.

Which despite my disagreement I can at least understand the business decision at play from BFG, WARN on the other hand?
I am very disappointed that WARN, Rancho, ProComp, INTERCO and other off road exclusive companies have not provided support resources.
 
warn and interco should be on top of this situation. if we cant wheel...we dont need either of them! The new trend is privatly (or even corperatly) owned orvs. im okay with that, but there needs to be more. wish i had the money to invest in 100 acres of worthless real estate somewhere.
 
one last point, but I don't know how to make it hold water in our favor. There are hundreds of streams and rivers through out NC and the Appalchians. Brook trout populations in the Apps isn't deteriorating due to a select few trails (or all of them) at Tellico. I know many rivers that are stocked with bows and browns yet you can't help but catch brookies. In N.Ga. I caught nothing but Bows and browns. when I moved to NC, it was a long time before I saw another bow or brown. they were all brookies.

Now to my point. We all have rights to our public lands. As Off-road enthusiasts, we have been relegated like the American indian to a select few public location that we can legally wheel. Ther are HUNDREDS of streams and rivers I can go fish, AND catch Brook Trout. Since when are Fishermans Right more important than that of the Off-Road enthusiats.

[rant]I'll tell you when. When they bring more MONEY to the table, and I'll bet a buffalo nickle that somebodies pocket is getting heavier over this.

Find that person, find that money, and we'll have our trails.[/rant]
 
Just curious but isn't there a lot of new construction on a lot of the streems that lead into the Tellico river? Isn't that also a contributing factor? I have seen more and more houses and cabins since I first went there 5 years ago.
 
ghost said:
Just curious but isn't there a lot of new construction on a lot of the streems that lead into the Tellico river? Isn't that also a contributing factor? I have seen more and more houses and cabins since I first went there 5 years ago.
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Good point. Sediment is the number one "volume" polluter in fresh water streams and lakes, but a more dangerous (in terms of fishkill)pollution comes from the runoff of a typical single-family home's lawn. Pesticides, fertilizer and even the nitrogen content of grass clippings are highly toxic to water sources, especially those that double as drinking water supplies.

This is just another angle to use when questioning the "science" behind the proposed actions. I plan to reasearch some more and include that in my letter. Or the letter from my wife. Or letter from our rabbit. We're sending several letters. :D
 
BigRedB2 said:
there are more wheelers than trout killers...why dont we have a stronger lobby representation? It sounds to me that the fishermen are complaining that there arent enough trout to kill and they are looking for some one to blame so they dont have to stop killing them!
Click to expand...
I would say your are wrong about the number of trout fisherman. I am one and I know alot more trout fisher men that are not wheelers.how ever I got in to wheeling to go fishing, so I could get to better spots.
 
Is the Trout group offering any kind of middle ground/concession or are they just asking for a complete shutting of the trail system to vehicles? Will the offer from us to build bridges where necessary help? I realize a bridge is a bandaid on a broken arm but it shows the groups involved that the offroaders are willing to bend a little in order to "help" the environment to keep the trails open. You don't have to be a scientist to see the "impact" that we are having on the creeks in the park. A bridge won't stop the runoff from the trail itself but there are other methods to help combat that such as silt fencing. Just some ideas to think about...
 
bronco slim said:
Is the Trout group offering any kind of middle ground/concession or are they just asking for a complete shutting of the trail system to vehicles? Will the offer from us to build bridges where necessary help? I realize a bridge is a bandaid on a broken arm but it shows the groups involved that the offroaders are willing to bend a little in order to "help" the environment to keep the trails open. You don't have to be a scientist to see the "impact" that we are having on the creeks in the park. A bridge won't stop the runoff from the trail itself but there are other methods to help combat that such as silt fencing. Just some ideas to think about...
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re-routing or creating new trails to replace those sanctioned to be shut down in an effort to minimize run off, maybe.
 
My comment over on NAXJA

... honestly dealing w/ erosion and sediment control almost daily I just don’t understand why the forest service cannot figure out what to do..(or hire a competent engineering firm to do it)...

It just doesn’t seem like too difficult of a problem to me. There's tons and tons of measures that could be implemented around the streams and trails to prevent sediment from entering the streams. Yeah some will but the majority can be stopped.

It'll take maintenance but it's do-able.

I also think one thing that isn’t helping the matter is the lack of rain we've had here lately (or all summer). The boulder bed (and steep) streams up there would easily allow the majority of the "suspended sediment" <--- new to me (and I've yet to see a murky/muddy stream up there which is what the term "suspended" would imply..i digress).... to be flushed out by a few good steady rains.

ALSO, a huge factor I believe is who's taking the turbidity and suspended solids or water quality measurements..... Hell you can go anywhere and if (and I'm not saying it's their motive) you don’t know what you're doing (or have ill-intentions) you can easily create bias test results...

Another thing to look at is the fact that up in the mountains there isnt much topsoil... very little and the areas where we are wheeling have already been almost completely eroded down to the bedrock.... whatever... I just think it's total BS...
 
I've heard of no middle ground as of yet. They're not really dealing with us though. They're going after the Forest Service for not doing a job they feel has been lacking. Thus not attacking us specifically.

Cutting new trails, I guarentee, will not happen.

Lastly, it has helped us out with the sparse rain as far as sampling goes but as more people ride on the trails it will create more loose sediment and when it does rain one good time, it will wipe the slate clean. I believe with the correct measures in place that we could catch the majority of run-off but in a time like this any sediment in the river is considered bad whether it is dark brown or light tan.
 
My only comment is... yea more rain will ultimately result in more sediment... However, The streams in the area (or any mountains for that matter) only have boulders, and cobbles in them.. there is very little sand, soil, (or even gravels) etc. on the stream bed.

The steep slopes of the streams dont allow for it.. More rain ultimately would result in more sediment but it will also result in the sediment being carried down stream to the foothills and eventually the coast.

I know it doesn't solve the problem with erosion on the trails but it does solve the problem with the trout in the area and moves the problem (sediment) into an area that is more designed to allow for it to settle out.

New trails would only add to the problem not help it..

There's lots of measures that can be done to prevent the sediment from entering the streams... you can't prevent erosion you can only manage it... These small sediment/silt traps that you see everywhere on the trails are very basic and elementary methods.. Basically it's the cheapest and least effective way to try to deal w/ the problem..

This is one problem that some $$ is going to have to be spent on to solve....you're not just going to solve it w/ a backhoe, dozer, and a few guys...

Finally.. yep if we close the trails down for a year... or forever for that matter it'll help some with erosion... but for the most part these trails are already cut and will continue to erode until the only thing left is bedrock regardless if we ride them or not.
 
uncc civilengineer said:
Finally.. yep if we close the trails down for a year... or forever for that matter it'll help some with erosion... but for the most part these trails are already cut and will continue to erode until the only thing left is bedrock regardless if we ride them or not.
Click to expand...

troof :huggy:
 
uncc civilengineer said:
My only comment is... yea more rain will ultimately result in more sediment... However, The streams in the area (or any mountains for that matter) only have boulders, and cobbles in them.. there is very little sand, soil, (or even gravels) etc. on the stream bed.
The steep slopes of the streams dont allow for it.. More rain ultimately would result in more sediment but it will also result in the sediment being carried down stream to the foothills and eventually the coast.
I know it doesn't solve the problem with erosion on the trails but it does solve the problem with the trout in the area and moves the problem (sediment) into an area that is more designed to allow for it to settle out.
New trails would only add to the problem not help it..
There's lots of measures that can be done to prevent the sediment from entering the streams... you can't prevent erosion you can only manage it... These small sediment/silt traps that you see everywhere on the trails are very basic and elementary methods.. Basically it's the cheapest and least effective way to try to deal w/ the problem..
This is one problem that some $$ is going to have to be spent on to solve....you're not just going to solve it w/ a backhoe, dozer, and a few guys...
Finally.. yep if we close the trails down for a year... or forever for that matter it'll help some with erosion... but for the most part these trails are already cut and will continue to erode until the only thing left is bedrock regardless if we ride them or not.
Click to expand...

Silt fences will get shot down by TU because (and here is the damn kicker) many of the stream species depend on food supplies (worms, grubs. etc) that will be washed into the stream
 
SkyHiK5 said:
Silt fences will get shot down by TU because (and here is the damn kicker) many of the stream species depend on food supplies (worms, grubs. etc) that will be washed into the stream
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Gee that reminds fo of the book I once read. Catch -22! :shaking: :rolleyes:
 
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