GM Engineering...

Darkbloodmon

Darkbloodmon

Active Member
Joined
Dec 21, 2020
Location
Concord, NC
Can anyone explain why I can put an early 2000s Silverado in Neutral or park without any power, but an 02 GMC Envoy has to have a "hidden" neutral override under the boot. Else you need power to the vehicle; and why the key won't come out of the ignition once you put said Envoy back into park, unless you put power to it?

My second to last call of the night (AAA) on 85 Northbound near exit 40 in the Fastlane shoulder of course. I was pissed having to get a damn jump box for an early 2000s body on frame GM SUV to get it in neutral on the side of the highway. I expected to pop the shift boot with my knife and something completely obvious to stare at me in the face to get it into neutral, but little did I know. Thankfully a passing Insurance (Geico) roadside truck pulled up behind it and put up their sign to direct traffic away from the left lane, but man was I peeved, even more so when I put a box on it and its damn headlight "washer nozzles" shot windshield washer fluid in my face because they were misaligned.
 
braxton357 said:
Why would you even mess with it. Just winch it up onto the truck and worry about it when you aren't on the side of the road
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Has to be in neutral to winch it up, breaking transmissions/tearing up a drive train doesn't make for very nice customer satisfaction scores. Transporting vehicles and people safely with out damage or harm is apart of my job description.
 
So the stupidity doesnt stop at GM , Ford Fusions also use this type of tech. Its wierd but I see it more with Passenger cars and suvs more than I see it with Trucks.
 
DonYukon said:
So the stupidity doesnt stop at GM , Ford Fusions also use this type of tech. Its wierd but I see it more with Passenger cars and suvs more than I see it with Trucks.
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Anything modern across all mfg. or late model Luxury (Merc, BMW, Audi, etc.) is a PIA nearly everything is electronic, meaning if you have wiring issue or can't get power to the vehicle you're SOL (or whoever's having to tow it...) when there isn't a manual override, but if you authorize me to "not be gentle" then I can
braxton357 said:
Just winch it up onto the truck and worry about it when you aren't on the side of the road
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Alot of Mercs and BMWs no longer have a manual mechanical override. Funny thing is some BMWs (depending on age) will still give you the tool and the instructions on how to get it into neutral override. But when you pop the access panel there isn't an override mechanism! They didn't bother to design another center console from the previous generation vehicles that had the override mechanism and just left the access holes in there and covered the slots and holes with plates.
 
Darkbloodmon said:
Anything modern across all mfg. or late model Luxury (Merc, BMW, Audi, etc.) is a PIA nearly everything is electronic, meaning if you have wiring issue or can't get power to the vehicle you're SOL (or whoever's having to tow it...) when there isn't a manual override, but if you authorize me to "not be gentle" then I can


Alot of Mercs and BMWs no longer have a manual mechanical override. Funny thing is some BMWs (depending on age) will still give you the tool and the instructions on how to get it into neutral override. But when you pop the access panel there isn't an override mechanism! They didn't bother to design another center console from the previous generation vehicles that had the override mechanism and just left the access holes in there and covered the slots and holes with plates.
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Excuse my ignorance but If you're on the side of a highway is there any DMV or state highway patrol clause that would allow you to remove the vehicle as quick as possible to avoid further incident or is that to intellegent for me to assume our lawmakers have done?
 
DonYukon said:
any DMV or state highway patrol clause that would allow you to remove the vehicle as quick as possible to avoid further incident
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If a sate highway patrol or police officer says drag it up it's blocking traffic. Then that authorization supersedes everything and I drag it up. I've almost been in that situation. On 277 late night, some girls Merc broke down in a (fast of course) lane, She didn't wait with the vehicle and took the keys with her. Police officers on scene guiding traffic had been doing so for the past 45mins waiting for the keys to get to the vehicle so it could move. This Merc was electronic shift without a neutral override and no keys. Me getting inside the vehicle was mute at this point with my lock out kit because you NEED the keys to get into neutral; the vehicle has to sense the key to get into neutral. Officer finally said "if keys aren't here in 10 minutes, drag it up" I was hooked up and ready to drag waiting for the clock to expire when keys got on location and I got it in neutral to winch. That time window was exceptionally gracious given the amount of officers on location for that period of time. This rarely.... happens and for a reason explained below.

I as a AAA driver cannot decide to move a vehicle off a road or highway without regards to damage without prior external authorization. I.e. supervisor, vehicle owner, authorities.

I almost never have to be in that situation to need that decision made because of the Geico road side truck I mentioned earlier; All of those insurance assist (Geico, Allstate, Satefarm, etc) roadside trucks to my knowledge do have legal authorization to do so when it impedes traffic/safety. As I'm told those 3/4 ton trucks they drive around in put those HD bumpers to use and will physically push or drag disabled vehicles out of the way on highways. By chance this Benz escaped that fate of being dragged across four lanes of highway in park to get out of the way. Most of the insurance Roadside drivers patrol major highway corridors, 277 is pretty intercity and not a normal highway for them to be running in.

When a vehicle is disabled on the road and blocking traffic, you can best believe the police are going to call their city contracted towing companies to move that vehicle ASAP. Especially for wreck calls. A member can call for AAA but if we aren't there within the allotted time frame by officers on location and their contracted trucks get there first that vehicle gets moved in any way shape or form.
 
Darkbloodmon said:
If a sate highway patrol or police officer says drag it up it's blocking traffic. Then that authorization supersedes everything and I drag it up. I've almost been in that situation. On 277 late night, some girls Merc broke down in a (fast of course) lane, She didn't wait with the vehicle and took the keys with her. Police officers on scene guiding traffic had been doing so for the past 45mins waiting for the keys to get to the vehicle so it could move. This Merc was electronic shift without a neutral override and no keys. Me getting inside the vehicle was mute at this point with my lock out kit because you NEED the keys to get into neutral; the vehicle has to sense the key to get into neutral. Officer finally said "if keys aren't here in 10 minutes, drag it up" I was hooked up and ready to drag waiting for the clock to expire when keys got on location and I got it in neutral to winch. That time window was exceptionally gracious given the amount of officers on location for that period of time. This rarely.... happens and for a reason explained below.

I as a AAA driver cannot decide to move a vehicle off a road or highway without regards to damage without prior external authorization. I.e. supervisor, vehicle owner, authorities.

I almost never have to be in that situation to need that decision made because of the Geico road side truck I mentioned earlier; All of those insurance assist (Geico, Allstate, Satefarm, etc) roadside trucks to my knowledge do have legal authorization to do so when it impedes traffic/safety. As I'm told those 3/4 ton trucks they drive around in put those HD bumpers to use and will physically push or drag disabled vehicles out of the way on highways. By chance this Benz escaped that fate of being dragged across four lanes of highway in park to get out of the way. Most of the insurance Roadside drivers patrol major highway corridors, 277 is pretty intercity and not a normal highway for them to be running in.

When a vehicle is disabled on the road and blocking traffic, you can best believe the police are going to call their city contracted towing companies to move that vehicle ASAP. Especially for wreck calls. A member can call for AAA but if we aren't there within the allotted time frame by officers on location and their contracted trucks get there first that vehicle gets moved in any way shape or form.
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It’s fun watching those guys push, pull, and drag cars. They are pretty ruthless
 
Futbalfantic said:
It’s fun watching those guys push, pull, and drag cars. They are pretty ruthless
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They don't hesitate that's for sure. In all the stuff I've seen in this line of work I've never seen one of them in the act. I've only heard of how they do it and seen the results...

Sometimes I wish I got that kind of paid stress relief on the clock. Some of these calls really test me.
 
Ive seen some wreckers cause a lot of carnage (albeit to already totaled cars) getting them out of the trees and gullies on 77. Some of the HP guys get a little upset when we have an interstate shut down, and the hookers just grab and go.
 
You really must be
Darkbloodmon said:
They don't hesitate that's for sure. In all the stuff I've seen in this line of work I've never seen one of them in the act. I've only heard of how they do it and seen the results...

Sometimes I wish I got that kind of paid stress relief on the clock. Some of these calls really test me.
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It really isn't as bad as you're making it out to drag a car in park onto a rollback.
 
My money would be on the envoy being an early adopter of an electronic lock between the brake and the shift mechanism. One of those bastard, in-between technologies...part electronic part mechanical. The other option is it is a 1-year specific issue, as I think 02 was the first year, maybe this was the quickest way around a NHTSA requirement.

When I made transmissions at GM the parking system was taken VERY seriously......a walk home is one thing, a parking pawl failure to engage is NOT an option.

This was the age of "sudden acceleration" and people claiming they couldn't stop their Prius on California highways.
 
shelby27604 said:
My money would be on the envoy being an early adopter of an electronic lock between the brake and the shift mechanism. One of those bastard, in-between technologies...part electronic part mechanical. The other option is it is a 1-year specific issue, as I think 02 was the first year, maybe this was the quickest way around a NHTSA requirement.

When I made transmissions at GM the parking system was taken VERY seriously......a walk home is one thing, a parking pawl failure to engage is NOT an option.

This was the age of "sudden acceleration" and people claiming they couldn't stop their Prius on California highways.
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We had one of those "sudden acceleration" Toyotas. The recall fix was removed the floor mat and hammer the floor down under the pedal...
 
Haven't looked into how it works, or how to bypass, but my 2021 silverado has an electronic parking brake.
I don't like it.
And after seeing a truck in park roll down a hill into a parking lot, I've had the habit of setting my brake, even on cars with an automatic, for the last 20 years or so.
 
Most electronic parking brakes are simple DC motors that are engaged until an amp draw value is met. If you know where they are and can access the plug, you can hot wire them with a Milwaukee battery and unlock them. That's what I do at work when the goons take too long to move a car I need moved.

No way I would do this on the side of an active highway, I'm not trying to die.
 
shelby27604 said:
My money would be on the envoy being an early adopter of an electronic lock between the brake and the shift mechanism. One of those bastard, in-between technologies...part electronic part mechanical. The other option is it is a 1-year specific issue, as I think 02 was the first year, maybe this was the quickest way around a NHTSA requirement.
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What NHTSA requirement would this be?
Chris_M said:
Haven't looked into how it works, or how to bypass, but my 2021 silverado has an electronic parking brake.
I don't like it.
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My 2018 Mazda 3 has one. Wit ha 6-speed manual. I HATE it. Driving a slick I'm always in the habit of pulling the parking brake anyway, I do not like pushing a button and hearing that motor clamp down for me. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this is any better. What problem does it solve? All of the electronically-controlled braking stuff like hill-assist and accident avoidance using the primary brakes.
We had a situation a few weeks ago where my wife needed to move my car, just back up a couple feet to get around it. I had the key. Despite just putting the trans in neutral there was no way to unlock the brake bc it wouldn't turn on. Are they just trying to make it harder for cars to be stolen via tow?
 
RatLabGuy said:
What NHTSA requirement would this be?

My 2018 Mazda 3 has one. Wit ha 6-speed manual. I HATE it. Driving a slick I'm always in the habit of pulling the parking brake anyway, I do not like pushing a button and hearing that motor clamp down for me. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this is any better. What problem does it solve? All of the electronically-controlled braking stuff like hill-assist and accident avoidance using the primary brakes.
We had a situation a few weeks ago where my wife needed to move my car, just back up a couple feet to get around it. I had the key. Despite just putting the trans in neutral there was no way to unlock the brake bc it wouldn't turn on. Are they just trying to make it harder for cars to be stolen via tow?
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Cost. Most of these electronic "improvements" (electronic steering, throttle, brakes, parking brake, etc) are actually cheaper and they market it and charge more for it. Think about the actual cost of a nicely trimmed lever, pivot, mounting bracket, cable, receiver bracket, splitter, 2 more cables, another lever on each caliper, an internal drum brake system and special discs with a drum ID. Now imagine you could just put a switch on the console, run a few wires around, and actuate a DC motor out at the caliper to make it go squish squish.
 
Mac5005 said:

GoJak Dollies

zips.com
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Messing around with skates or skids on the highway closest to the fast lane is one of the last things you'd want to do. The mass majority of our highway calls get put on roll back drivers because the conditions aren't safe enough to allow wheel lifts (wreckers) to put vehicles on dollies on the side of the road. So long as it goes in neutral, a roll back can get it alot faster and safer.
braxton357 said:
It really isn't as bad as you're making it out to drag a car in park onto a rollback.
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Well there is a reason why we don't, things break and people file damage claims. People get nervous enough when I attach my winch line and take out the slack before putting vehicles in neutral. "Aren't you going to put it in N?" , "You're going to put it in N right?" , "Doesn't it have to be in N?" , "Mind if I put it in N?"

Me saying "It's really not that bad or hard on your drive train" isn't going to fly listening to tires screech and wheels backlash all the way up my bed.

Bebop said:
Most electronic parking brakes are simple DC motors that are engaged until an amp draw value is met. If you know where they are and can access the plug, you can hot wire them with a Milwaukee battery and unlock them. That's what I do at work when the goons take too long to move a car I need moved.

No way I would do this on the side of an active highway, I'm not trying to die.
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Those are a pain, there are a few Chrysler/Stellantis vehicles that have factory programing to default the E-parking brake into the on position without being able to remove it for Tract control, trans-control, check engine lights, stability fault issues, etc. It will use the very last of the vehicles power putting that E-brake on and even after getting power to the vehicle It won't come off again.

Those vehicles after getting them in Neutral get skids, what goes on the bed has to come off at some point and messing with a locked parking brake is the worst when unloading; The rolls backs don't have as long a winch line to snatch block vehicles off.
 
RatLabGuy said:
My 2018 Mazda 3 has one. Wit ha 6-speed manual. I HATE it. Driving a slick I'm always in the habit of pulling the parking brake anyway, I do not like pushing a button and hearing that motor clamp down for me. I cannot for the life of me figure out what this is any better. What problem does it solve? All of the electronically-controlled braking stuff like hill-assist and accident avoidance using the primary brakes.
We had a situation a few weeks ago where my wife needed to move my car, just back up a couple feet to get around it. I had the key. Despite just putting the trans in neutral there was no way to unlock the brake bc it wouldn't turn on. Are they just trying to make it harder for cars to be stolen via tow?
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You have no idea how many people forget their parking brakes. Or even to put their cars in Park (I know someone who did that last week... and the car ran into their house).

For a manufacturer, making you HAVE to HAVE the key before moving the car is a cheap way to insure no-one will sue them because they got hurt by their car.

Common sense is not part of the equation.
 
Bebop said:
You have no idea how many people forget their parking brakes. Or even to put their cars in Park (I know someone who did that last week... and the car ran into their house).

For a manufacturer, making you HAVE to HAVE the key before moving the car is a cheap way to insure no-one will sue them because they got hurt by their car.

Common sense is not part of the equation.
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My wife's '22 Mini Cooper automatically puts the car is park if you open the door. Super annoying when parallel parking close to a curb, I'm used to just opening the door and looking down.
 
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RatLabGuy said:
My wife's '22 Mini Cooper automatically puts the car is park if you open the door. Super annoying when parallel parking close t a curb, I'd used to just opening the door and looking down.
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My 2016 Ram did the same thing..... opening the door to backup to a trailer was a jarring experience the first time (after they did a recall service).
 
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