Group Land Effort Discussion

Ron

Ron

Dum Spiro Spero
Moderator
Joined
Apr 16, 2005
Location
Sharon, SC
Ok, I am starting this thread as a Central Depot for ideas and concerns about the discussed group land purchase.

What I would like to do here, is identify issues more so than weigh in on them. Please post up potential snags, snafoos or questions you see and I will try to compile a master list. I will be editing this first post as new issues are brought up, and once we have a fairly all inclusive list I will begin individual threads to discuss the issues. I am also working on a quick click type survey that could be emailed or loaded to a webpage to gather data and opinions quickly.


Going back to the Old Thread....
For the purpose of these lists
OWNERS will refer to whatever group would contribute a large initial chunk.
MEMBERS will be potentially those who pay only monthly access but did not contribute to the initial start up.
GUESTS are invited and brought by OWNERS/MEMBERS VISITORS have no connection, only possibly pay a day use fee


Access: Who/what will be allowed to use
-ATVs
-Dirt Bikes
-Horses
-Mountain Bikes
-Walkers/Joggers
-Owners only
-Will any visitors be allowed
-Guest Quantities
-Clubs
-Any vehicle restrictions (not really a fan here, but do we need to state that metal tank tracks arent allowed, etc.?)
-Tracking members/owners versus none.


Liability: What potential concerns are there for liability of the group

-Insurance
-Legal Representation Retainage
-How does Ownership/Membership/Guest/Visitor status effect
-Ecological/Environmental (Specifically watre quality, ESA, and erosion control)
-Financial (Taxes, upkeep,etc.)
-Bodily Injury
-Vehicle Damage (Its should go without saying but do we need a disclaimer,sign,agreement, etc that we aren't responsible for body damage

Property Usage
-Trails
-Mud Pit
-Rocks
-Artificial Obstacles
-Camp Sites (full hook up?)
-Garage/Shop area
-Convenience Store/Gas Station
-Hunting
+ Shotguns
+ Rifles
+ Bows
+Trail Closure for hunting days
-Fishing
-Forestry/Timber Production
-Events/Jamborees Expos

Finances
-Initial Investment
-Yearly dues
- Exchange rate for labor = dollars
-Fund raisers
-Financial Viability as an economic entity
-Long Term Growth and Expansion
-Stock/Share selling
-Multi-Stock/Share holding (1 individual many votes)
-Split stock/share holding (many individuals 1 vote)

Resources
+ Equipment for use
+ Skills
+ Consultants
+ Businesses/Licenses

OK so thats my initial compilation and again I will be adding and updating this list as more things are added. What I hope to do is put together a quick 1-5 survey of the format:
Updated through post #9

What are your feelings on ATVs
1- If ATVs are allowed I am out
2-I'd prefer no ATVs but its not a deal killer for me
3- I really dont care either way
4-I'd prefer ATVs but its not a deal killer for me
5- No ATVs, NO me

For each issue to allow us to collect some real tangible data. Then we may find we have a consensus on some issues and we can just note that and agree while some issues may require some discussion and debate. I think and hope that this will help form a outline of our issues and potential challenges. And finally please refrain from debating the merits of others posts here. If some one posts they want showers with peep holes for man watching, there will be a time to vote that out, for now I just want some data on what most folks here want
 
I vote for 1-way mirrors dividing the male and female showers (mirror side to the females obviously).

ATV's:2-I'd prefer no ATVs but its not a deal killer for me
 
Horses are a bad idea, I really wouldnt like to come over a hill and total my ride and kill someone and there horse. Plus dont those things spook pretty easy.

Then hunting seems like hunting where people are 4wheeling might be a little dangerous.

ATV's :4 i prefer but no deal killer
 
-Trails
yes....w/ some for every level. easy/med/hard

-Mud Pit
I hate mud...others love it. Yes

-Rocks
Absolutely

-Artificial Obstacles
close to camp, pose and play....may need them for diffuculty

-Camp Sites (full hook up?)
Marked camp w/ quite time and restrictions. At least have bathrooms

-Garage/Shop area
Nice to have but not neccessary. (I'd be the first to need it!)

-Convenience Store/Gas Station
Nice, but might hurt Non-profit status

-Hunting
Even around trails it could be done. restricted to shotguns and bows

-Fishing
sure, why not?

-Forestry/Timber Production
Well controlled and planned it could offset a lot of cost.

-Events/Jamborees Expos
Absolutely

ATV's....#2

Matt
 
No ATVs.

Hunting during certain times when closed to ORVs - OK

Fishing - OK

Timber OK but keep to certain areas to keep other trees intact.

Campnig - Yes

Events - Jamborees - OK Way to keep money on the coffers for upkeep

Definately have to have multiple types of onstacles and mud. Keeps the are interesting and it is fun to see a tube buggy go through the mud pit.

Have some ramifications for those who do not respect the land (i.e trail blazing and general disrespect) and make clear rules so there is no grey area for interpretation.
 
So what you are doing here is identifing issues / compiling a survey form (NOT ASKING folks to fill it out yet, hang on everyone!!)

Under Hunting: My suggestion is we break it down to
1 NO Hunting = deal breaker
2 BowHunting allowed unlimited / Close trails xx days per year for Deer/Gun season would be ok by me.
3 Unlimited Bow Hunting / NO Gun hunting
4 Limited Bow Hunting / No Gun hunting
5 Hunting allowed = deal breaker

Then a section for their monetary interest in the project:
A: Owner $x,xxx upfront, Annual Dues $xxx
B: Member, $xxx to join, Annual Dues $xxx
C: Worker, Labor Hours = access, signed by OWNER

Then, per TOM KNOPPS Suggestion on your form, would add an area of "Things / skills" you can contribute / can bring and use on the property:

Tractor / Front End Loader / Bush Hog, Tiller, etc
Well Digging Machine
Backhoe, etc..
Chainsaw (URE Certified)
Post Hole Digger-2man
Electrician / Plumber / Accountant / Lawyer / TimberCert, etc
 
I'm Civil Designer and can help with all Erosion Control Issues. Can survey, design trails / do a Site map, meet with manicipality and then design EC under Manicipalities rules and regulations. No problems in that catagory besides cost of any backhoe work (diversions), silt fencing and rip-rap. With no impervious there won't be much EC measures. Could probably get away with aerial topo to cut Survey time down.
That is if EC is even an issue with Manicipality? We could put up some silt fencing just for our own sake though. EC is not really anything major especially since we aren't paving / building.
 
SHINTON said:
So what you are doing here is identifing issues / compiling a survey form (NOT ASKING folks to fill it out yet, hang on everyone!!)
Under Hunting: My suggestion is we break it down to
1 NO Hunting = deal breaker
2 BowHunting allowed unlimited / Close trails xx days per year for Deer/Gun season would be ok by me.
3 Unlimited Bow Hunting / NO Gun hunting
4 Limited Bow Hunting / No Gun hunting
5 Hunting allowed = deal breaker
Then a section for their monetary interest in the project:
A: Owner $x,xxx upfront, Annual Dues $xxx
B: Member, $xxx to join, Annual Dues $xxx
C: Worker, Labor Hours = access, signed by OWNER
Then, per TOM KNOPPS Suggestion on your form, would add an area of "Things / skills" you can contribute / can bring and use on the property:
Tractor / Front End Loader / Bush Hog, Tiller, etc
Well Digging Machine
Backhoe, etc..
Chainsaw (URE Certified)
Post Hole Digger-2man
Electrician / Plumber / Accountant / Lawyer / TimberCert, etc
Click to expand...

THANKS!

I guess I wasnt Real clear in what I was after there.

Also update I am working on a website that would allow everyone to click a link fill out an online survey and compile all the results automagically.


List updated, keep the suggestions coming
 
Is anyone a part of a Hunt or Fishing Club that has private land and memberships? how does that work, and could that be applied to an offroad club.

I think a select few individuals with the Financial means and that are pretty anchored to stay in the area have an initial purchase of land, and then Memberships with Annual dues and contracts is a pretty viable option. a membership with dues is much more feasible for me personally.

I also feel that Hunting should be left off the list. It's my understanding that the concept was to be a 4wd park, or is this to be all inclusive Outdoor recreation park? Just seems to me that Hunting brings in too much of a liability and increased danger in the Dick Cheney factor.
 
One reason I brought up the alternate uses was because I always thought URE was how public land should be managed.

There's something for everyone at URE.

4x4 drivers
ATV riders
dirtbike riders
Horse people
Mtbikers
Hikers
Hunters
Target shooters
fisherman
campers
backpackers

am I leaving anyone out?

My point being, I think it's great that one chunk of land can make so many different user groups happy. Some happier than others I'm sure, but for the most part all the people stay out of each other's hair.

Now a smaller, privately owned park, might not be able to accomodate everyone because it doesn't have as much space. I say "might" because if you have a limited number of owners, then you'll be able to give the owners more freedom in usage than if you have a lot of folks packed into a small space.
 
6BangBronk said:
I'm Civil Designer and can help with all Erosion Control Issues. Can survey, design trails / do a Site map, meet with manicipality and then design EC under Manicipalities rules and regulations. No problems in that catagory besides cost of any backhoe work (diversions), silt fencing and rip-rap. With no impervious there won't be much EC measures. Could probably get away with aerial topo to cut Survey time down.
That is if EC is even an issue with Manicipality? We could put up some silt fencing just for our own sake though. EC is not really anything major especially since we aren't paving / building.
Click to expand...


Im sorry but I disagree with you.. Erosion Control is key to this regardless if we're paving/building,etc.... I mean look at tellico If they had spent the time/money to implement proper erosion control measures from the get go we most likely wouldnt be dealing w/ the TU, etc.

I also think that you will most likely need a Sealed Erosion and Sedimentation Control Plan per NCDENR. I may be wrong but I believe that any land disturbing activity (changing natural topography,etc.) over 1AC requires a plan. Again I've never dealt with creating an OHV area but I can tell you that NCDENR has a problem w/ erision and especially offsite erosion and any OHV area not properly maintained is going to have offsite erosion.

Also, silt fencing, silt bars, traps are great but other measures need to be looked at.. Im telling you we're seeing huge pushes towards BMP's, bio retention, etc. and w/ OHV use adding metals, oils, etc. to the runoff NCDENR would look highly on some properly designed treatment features.

Also as for costs... yeah construction costs however permits are getting more expensive every day it seems like.

If this really get going down the road I'll help where I can also if needed...
 
uncc civilengineer said:
Im sorry but I disagree with you.. Erosion Control is key to this regardless if we're paving/building,etc.... I mean look at tellico If they had spent the time/money to implement proper erosion control measures from the get go we most likely wouldnt be dealing w/ the TU, etc.
I also think that you will most likely need a Sealed Erosion and Sedimentation Control Plan per NCDENR. I may be wrong but I believe that any land disturbing activity (changing natural topography,etc.) over 1AC requires a plan. Again I've never dealt with creating an OHV area but I can tell you that NCDENR has a problem w/ erision and especially offsite erosion and any OHV area not properly maintained is going to have offsite erosion.
Also, silt fencing, silt bars, traps are great but other measures need to be looked at.. Im telling you we're seeing huge pushes towards BMP's, bio retention, etc. and w/ OHV use adding metals, oils, etc. to the runoff NCDENR would look highly on some properly designed treatment features.
Also as for costs... yeah construction costs however permits are getting more expensive every day it seems like.
If this really get going down the road I'll help where I can also if needed...
Click to expand...

Yea, Tellico didn't have their heads screwed on when they rampaged freely up there back in the 70's not even thinking about the entire state of NC and even SC drinking their piss. If you track their streams, you'll see some major impacts! There's no hiding their destructions downstream...
No guarantees on ANYBODY'S thoughts until you set down with the manicipality with a thought out plan but my thoughts are as long as the wetlands and stream buffers are deliniated and you stay out of DWQ's ass and keep the streams clean, in which I'm a firm believer in anyways, there won't be any EC issues.
Bioretention and BMP's? Come on now, what, divert sed basins and silt fence the streams is MORE than adequate, not? Hay bails are the best method for oil containment so have them around the low spots. Rip-rap the trail heads only if coming to a state owned asphalt road. TOPS!!!
Look at Uhwarrie and the other private playgrounds, what kind of ec measures they got?
Any bfe manicipality will go along with willingness for ec participation. Just use your head on trail locations and build your own mud holes and present the manicipality a good Site, Grading and EC Plan. If you don't disturb the hornets nest (DWQ) the hornets will keep to theirselves.:huggy:

:beer:
 
i agree with 6bang, if you plan the site to have a minimal impact, and the neighbors arent affected and have no need to complain, we stay below the radar.

I also agree with UNCC Civil, measures do need to be taken, good thing theres two heads to work this out!! between the two of you, things oughta be contained.

Hunting is probably a bad idea. a shooting area with berms large enough to contain stray fire and in a direction generally away from the trails i.e. uwharrie, may be cool. definatly have posted dates and times the range is open though.

the one thing no one is brought up is insurance on a "public" use ORV. Also all the legal work to safegaurd the owners from lawsuit happy friends of friends of friends.

And last but not least...the "am i leaving anyone out" part....

My RC club would have great intrest in being a part of the maintenance and upkeep of an RC rock crawling area and the rest of the park for that matter as most of us wheel full size vehicles as well. I'm sure we wont have any resources that arent already offeredd but i feel safe in saying that i speak for the entire club when i say we will do anything we can to help out in the creation and maintenance of any ORV park you guys set up.
 
My vote would be NO atv's or dirtbikes too many issues with trail and bodly harm as well as no regard for other people on trail most times. IMO :popcorn:
 
my .02 cents

i live in sc and there a man hear that own a perty good amount of land.. he charges every ride 10 bucks a day to go and play its all flat land hear except the 150 yard sand hill that goes stat up perty much that he made.. and a bunch of mudd. you have to sign in and sign out.. if u want my .02 cent on huntin i would say no.. you wouldave to close it down durein hunting seson or have a crap load of land so no one get killed.. and if there trucks and dit bikesand so one playing it goin to be to lod for the deer turk etc to stay around anyways.. telaco has been around forever.. i use to live in andrews nc so iv been there alot to play.. a rc comp.. site would be perty cool to have.. to get everything that u said u would like to have or want ot have you would have to have a bunch of lad.. and limit everyone to there part orwhatever.. like trunks in this area dirt bike and atv in this area and horses and hikers in this aea and so on.. anyways thats my 2 cent marcus
 
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