Non-Competition Buggy builder feeler

ManglerYJ

ManglerYJ

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Location
Lexington, NC
Whew! Try saying THAT three times fast!

What I'm trying to figure out is whether or not there would be a demand for a non-competition style buggy builder. I've been toying with the idea of building light weight 4WD buggies specifically for light trail only use. Sort of a mix between a high end quad and a low end Jeep, but buggy shaped.

My goal would be to have a total weight of around 2000 lbs so it can easily and safely be trailered by smaller trucks (1/2 ton or mid-sized SUV), relatively low cost (probably more than a quad, but less than a decent starter Jeep), and fairly capable for trails like Uwharrie, etc.

I've been working with a local trailer builder on some other projects and we have discussed this briefly. I could probably work it out to have a light trailer custom built to haul the buggy available to add to the package.

One of the first things I'd have to figure out is how to title them like an ATV. These would NOT be street legal and I'd have no plans to offer them in any street legal capacity.

Can anyone shed a little light on the legality of building a buggy for resale (I figure it would sort of be like what OCC does with choppers) and how to title them? Also, would there be any interest in such a thing? These would NOT be like the Polaris 2 seater ATV/Utility truck thing I've seen. Those look like an over sized golf cart!
 
ManglerYJ said:
Sort of a mix between a high end quad and a low end Jeep, but buggy shaped.

My goal would be to have a total weight of around 2000 lbs so it can easily and safely be trailered by smaller trucks (1/2 ton or mid-sized SUV), relatively low cost (probably more than a quad, but less than a decent starter Jeep), and fairly capable for trails like Uwharrie, etc.
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You just described a Samurai:flipoff2:

Seriously though, what drivetrain components were you thinking about using?
 
well in NC ATV's are not titled, so why even bother with one? Or you could title it as whatever vehicle you used the most parts from... be it a parts jeep or yota or sammy.
 
drkelly said:
You just described a Samurai:flipoff2:

Seriously though, what drivetrain components were you thinking about using?
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Probably Sami for light weight. At least axles anyway. Been tinkering with some designs to use front wheel drive components as a transmission, and pseudo- transfer case for light weight, availability and power. I want everything to be EFI. No carbs.

One of my ideas actually had the weight coming in much less than 1500 lbs. I haven't built it yet, except in my mind.
 
Like THIS?

131625696.jpg
 
CasterTroy said:
Like THIS?

131625696.jpg
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Sorta...... except without the INSANE price tag! Base on those suckers is $25,000!!!!! Might as well hit the Jeep dealer for that coin!

Also, it looks like they are trying to make it into a competition vehicle. My concept would be for simple enjoyment for those that aren't up to building a vehicle themselves, but want something more than an "off the showroom floor" Jeep.
 
I didn't think they're competition ready....more for general fun (least thats how they were presented on Xtreme4x4tv)

I personally believe they are pricey because of the components and OVER-engineering in them to prevent someone from hurting themselves and suing the company
 
CasterTroy said:
I didn't think they're competition ready....more for general fun (least thats how they were presented on Xtreme4x4tv)

I personally believe they are pricey because of the components and OVER-engineering in them to prevent someone from hurting themselves and suing the company
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I defintely think that over-engineering is a good thing, but in my opinion, if it has a decently built roll cage, it's at least safer than an ATV, and even ATV's have BIG disclaimers in their ads about safety equipment and adult riders. On their website, there is video of them running a W.E. Rock course in one of their buggies.

My main goal is to make it affordable for a beginner wheeler to get into the sport without having to run the risk of buying some rusted out P.O.S. that is constantly breaking down on the trail (we ALL hate it when a trail os blocked by one of those). I want to use pretty new components in it, with a mixture of some older stuff that is tried and true for what it is. Sami stuff is OK as long at you keep the tire size in check. Go much bigger, and stuff breaks - no fun for anyone.
 
At the Dixie Run I saw some buggies built down in GA. Pretty simple. They used Honda engines and trannys, locked the trannys like the ricers do, and instead of CV axles, they were replaced by drive shafts going to the front and rear diffs. They use HP Currie 9" both ends, which is really nice, but I think a narrowed 44, or a toyote axle would be great. IIRC the trannys were 3 to 1 and the diffs were 4:10's and they were running 35's
They had many versions from one seaters to 4 seaters. I think any FWD could be used, Honda or Toyota would be my choice simply because of reputation.
 
CasterTroy said:
Like THIS?

131625696.jpg
Click to expand...
the three times I've seen one of those at Tellico i was less than impressed. I'd kick myself in the ass if I shucked out 25k for something that didn't do very well on or off the road. The guys who built them were in front of us on lower 2, they couldn't keep it running and If I'm not mistaken they winched it up the go-around on the last ledge. as for the buggies Chip described they were pretty cool and looked a lot more capable than this thing.
 
upnover said:
At the Dixie Run I saw some buggies built down in GA. Pretty simple. They used Honda engines and trannys, locked the trannys like the ricers do, and instead of CV axles, they were replaced by drive shafts going to the front and rear diffs. They use HP Currie 9" both ends, which is really nice, but I think a narrowed 44, or a toyote axle would be great. IIRC the trannys were 3 to 1 and the diffs were 4:10's and they were running 35's
They had many versions from one seaters to 4 seaters. I think any FWD could be used, Honda or Toyota would be my choice simply because of reputation.
Click to expand...

So it does sound like there is a demand for them, and I think with my plan, I could do the math right to have them a little more affordable than what's out there. I would defintely have my attorney write up some sort of waiver of responsibility of the buggy was used on trails deemed to be "more difficult" where severe rollover potential would be present. I think that my design will hold up to multiple soft rolls, but an endo or a high speed roll may see some problems. Again, my purpose will be light trail duty with the focus on controlled wheeling than balls-out rock crawling. Low horsepower, low gears, moderate tire size and lockers.
 
ManglerYJ said:
I would defintely have my attorney write up some sort of waiver of responsibility of the buggy was used on trails deemed to be "more difficult" where severe rollover potential would be present. I think that my design will hold up to multiple soft rolls, but an endo or a high speed roll may see some problems. Again, my purpose will be light trail duty with the focus on controlled wheeling than balls-out rock crawling.
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You would need to build it to take a roll, be it over on it's side or an End over end. Otherwise, some will get hurt, not something I think you would want to have on your shoulders. Light is great( Like I would know:rolleyes: ) but not at the expense of safety.
Built right, it can still be light and durable. Build one and figure out how you want it all done. That one will take time and more money. When you have all the bugs worked out, build five at a time. All clones. You will have concerably less money and funds in the "production" modles.
Now with all of this, if I were to buy one from you. It would somehow become street legal. Because you can not trailer it to all trail heads. so keep in mind, I would not be the only one do do this.
 
upnover said:
You would need to build it to take a roll, be it over on it's side or an End over end. Otherwise, some will get hurt, not something I think you would want to have on your shoulders. Light is great( Like I would know:rolleyes: ) but not at the expense of safety.
Built right, it can still be light and durable. Build one and figure out how you want it all done. That one will take time and more money. When you have all the bugs worked out, build five at a time. All clones. You will have concerably less money and funds in the "production" modles.
Now with all of this, if I were to buy one from you. It would somehow become street legal. Because you can not trailer it to all trail heads. so keep in mind, I would not be the only one do do this.
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It will definitely have a stronger cage than what comes stock in a Wrangler or a Sami. No doubt at all in that. If Jeep can sleep at night knowing they have a roll cage like that on a production vehicle that they consider "trail rated", then I'll have no problems with my design. I just don't want anyone entering what I build in UROC or the like and complain that it won't sustain that kind of punishment, because that's not what it would be built for. I'm just not going to build a jungle gym of tubing adding a ton of weight that won't be needed. The cage design will be well triangulated, gussetted and strong, but light. Ideally, I would rather if one rolls bad enough to damage the cage, be able to swap the mechanics of it onto another chassis relatively inexpensively than to have someone attempt to repair the tubing. Ideally, I'd like to be able to "re-chassis" one for around $1000. That would be swapping the mechanics over to a new frame with new tubing. I don't know if it will work when all is said and done, but that's the goal.
 
I would defiently buy one if it was in the price range and you could directly talk to the builder and get things customized how u want such as axes, gears, lockers,spool etc..
 
My target price would be around $4500 for a turn-key rig with customizable options adding to that cost. That is the goal I'm shooting for. Now before everyone gets their tightie-whities in a wad saying, "But you could build a Zuk/Beater Toyota/ CJ-whatever for that - yes you could. But if you had a buddy that was hesitant to buy a 30+ year old rust-bucket, or didn't know where to start on building one, this would be an option instead of going to the Honda/Polaris dealer and snagging an ATV off the show room floor.

Matt
 
Are you trying to make any money? $4500 isn't alot at all.
 
4500 for a pre built buddy Id be on that rather quickly, especially if I could customize the axles, lockers, gears etc..of course all adding tot he final cost
 
Rich said:
Are you trying to make any money? $4500 isn't alot at all.
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Of course making a lot of money would be really cool, but this would at least at first be just a side business. I still have to build a prototype to make sure that I can build the design I want within budget and it will be sturdy and long-lived. While I don't want to half-ass it, I also don't feel the need to put top-shelf stuff in it that is just bling. I see a lot of buggy builders go right for high-end racing seats and blingy wheels and the like. I want to keep it simple, safe and effective. There will be racing seats and harnesses in them, but it will be budget-minded. I'm of the opinion that I'd rather sell 100 things at a 10 dollar profit than 1 thing at a 1000 dollar profit. I know it means more work, but if I can price it out so that I can make back my outlay plus a profit, have fun while I'm doing it, and get people involved in the sport who otherwise would just be web-wheelers, then I've done something I can be proud of.

What would you say an acceptable price range be for something base model? I defintely don't think I can go to market for less than $4500, though. I think once you get a good set of tires (swampers or similar), a drivetrain, cage, seats and safety equipment, some lights, steering wheel and pedals factored in, the price will be up there quite a bit. My time is valuable, especially spending spare time with family (now that I'm a dad!), so I definitely would need it to be profitable as well. (this is more than a hobby)
 
I say go for it but I think you will have a hard time keeping the price near $4500 and still making any kind of profit. I thought my little buggy project would be cheap but in the end I will have close to 5k in mine and that was waiting and being patient and finding deals. I think a sammy drivetrain will prolly be your cheapest route. If Using halfway decent components, I would buy one at $4500. Good luck
 
working your ass off and only making a few bucks may be fun, but it def. doesn't pay the bills...

and, its only fun for a small amount of time, then it gets demanding and un-fun
 
Matt,
I think you have a good conceptual idea. However, $4500 will never work in reality. Not trying to be a wet noodle but realistically you will not be able to build and put together this project for that. At least not to the point where you are wanting to be.

One major point you are gonna have to deal with is the fact that you are going to have to find a good, dependable supply for the motor/tranny setup. If someone is buying a brand new toy for $4500 they are not gonnna want the 100K mile motor/tranny you can buy for $500.

What are you going to do for suspension and steering? Full hydro?? That is $500-750 easy right there. If mech, you are gonna need to find a source for excellent condition boxes and that will be at least $500 with shaft, column, box, etc. What about suspension??? Links and joints adds up fast. Leafs can to if you have to buy aftermarket......Used would not work for your target market.......

Building a "Like New" set of axles with gears/lockers and a JY housing(assuming you can find a super cheap, good supply) will be at least $1000(gears, lockers, new brakes, bearings, etc.).

Figure $2K for a set of Beadlocks and Tires........at a minimum if you are using new.

Driveshafts???? $500 at least......

I haven't even talked about the chassis yet.......

Just trying to be realistic because I don't want to see you get a bunch tied up in this without it being realistic and it turning into one of those projects both of us have dealt with in the past.......;)

HTH
Andy
 
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