360 in a yj

Discussion in 'General Tech' started by Baby, Dec 12, 2005.

  1. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    I was just woundering how hard it would be to put a 1979 360 in a 93 YJ. I am getting a 360, with a T-150 trans and a T-20 t-case how hard would it be to swap? I know that i have to change the axels, so just for more info what would be the best axels too.
     
  2. Ricky B

    Ricky B Wiiide Open

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    LKN - Tha Dirty Mo (Mooresville, NC)
    I got a AMC 360 in my Jeep It's a 74 CJ5 frame and a 95 YJ body, I got a Torqueflight 727 hooked up to it and an np 231 behind it, it's still in progess but I mean the swap is doable. I have a dana 44 front axle and 14 bolt rear. You could get some wagoneer dana 44 axles that would probably handle it since wagoneers came with 360's and they are leaf spring axles and you can get a wagoneer driver drop front axle to match your t case. Axle size you need depends on the tire size you want to run thou.
     
  3. upnover

    upnover Grumpy, decrepit Old Man Moderator

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    Morganton NC
    Motor mounts are different, so that's one issue. I think the frame width is different so you would need to fab some mounts. Need a CJ radiator. Electronics will be an issue. the T150 isn't the best choice of trannys, just not as strong( I am sure some will disagree) Manual wise, the choice tranny would be the T-18, and the T-176( I have the T-176) Auto wise the 727 is a good one. The T-18 came with the Dana 20, The T-176 with a Dana 300, and the 727 with various t cases. Dime wise, your best be would be to find a 4.0 and go back in with it, should ba almost a direct bolt in.
    WHat do you have now, why are you changing ect?
     
  4. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    I have a 2.5l in it right now and i want to go bigger. The reason i am asking is because i am gettin g all of this really cheep so i want to know if it would nickle and dime me to death.
     
  5. linvillegorge

    linvillegorge New Member

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    Morganton
    It's going to nickel and dime you to death. If you're getting it on the cheap, it could be worth it. Sit down figure everything up to get an estimate, then double it. That will probably be in the ballpark of what it will actually cost. Are you doing the work yourself or getting it done at a shop? Unless you know what you're doing, it may be cheaper when it's all said and done to get a shop to do it.
     
  6. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    I'll be doing the work myself along with club members. i realy wouldn't think i would need a shop. besides i will only take it to a shop if i am completly lost. I have this thing that i do all my own work. why would you say take it to a shop.
     
  7. linvillegorge

    linvillegorge New Member

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    It's just that if you don't have any experience with swaps like this you can really end up nickle and diming yourself to death. You'll get in the middle of things and realize you don't have this or don't have that, you don't have this tool or that tool, this is bad on that and this, this part isn't going to work, this wiring &*#$@!!! Things like that. If you have others helping you and they have experience - go for it! No better way to learn it. It's just that if you're doing it yourself, figure at least double your expected budget (that's assuming the drivetrain components need no work) and probably triple the expected downtime. If you have plenty of time on your hands and don't mind beating your face against a wall a few times out of frustration - then go for it!! Good luck, have fun, and have plenty of :beer: on hand!
     
  8. Ricky B

    Ricky B Wiiide Open

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    Yea it's def not easy, something always gets fracked in a buildup no matter if your just changing oil. But In my opinion if your taking the time to swap in a new engine, do it right the first time and get the V8, especially if you have plenty of time, and your getting a good deal on the drivetrain parts, then go fer it.
     
  9. drkelly

    drkelly Dipstick who put two vehicles on jack stands

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    Best advice yet.
     
  10. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    I have awhile to do this, and just got into our own garage so this should be a fun transformation. I also wanted to ask if a amc 20 rear and a dana30 will be ok just to start with? because this is what i have to start with. I would like to move to dana 44 when i get some money after the fact.
     
  11. Ricky B

    Ricky B Wiiide Open

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    They'll be ok to putt around in for a while but they won't handle much, they arn't very strong axles.
     
  12. linvillegorge

    linvillegorge New Member

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    Morganton
    What size tires are you going to run? A trussed AMC 20 with one piece axles and the tubes welded to the pumpkin is probably stronger than a D44. I had one behind a SBC 350, locked on 36's and never had a problem. The D30 broke constantly though. Swapped it for a D44 and never had another problem.
     
  13. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    I will be running 35's for right now until i upgrade the drive train.
     
  14. StudNuts

    StudNuts Well-Known Member

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    Wendell
    Toss that 360 in there and call it a day. Its not difficult to fab motor mounts. You dont need full width & tons to run a v8. What electronics are on a neangerthol amc engine? Thats just about the easist swap you can do. Get some cool guages, a msd box and bam.



    I had a cj5 with a built 390 that would pop wheelies and spit the d20 carrier right out the back - oh the good ole days.
     
  15. spraypaintman

    spraypaintman Well-Known Member

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    Greensboro
    Go for it man! When you get the motor just make sure you get all of the wiring harness, ignition module, radiator & all else you can grab. You can always trim your grill to fit the waggy radiator. Parts for these motors are plentiful in the junk yards! Get a TF727 from a waggy and you will be set!

    Keep the axles you have until they break.
     
  16. linvillegorge

    linvillegorge New Member

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    ^^^^
    What he said. Get all the wiring, radiator, misc. parts, etc. that you can from the donor vehicle.
     
  17. phatmax95

    phatmax95 Well-Known Member

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    Apr 9, 2005
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    Kernersville
    If its a fsj amc20 there is a big debate if its stronger than a d44. Many think so. Its at least just as stong. Just harder to find parts for especially wheel bearings.
     
  18. Baby

    Baby New Member

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    Dec 6, 2005
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    i'm not getting to see the donor vehicle but wireing wont be that hard. Or will it. The reason i say that was because if it's just a carb i just have to run the gauges and the starter. I want the basic and, thats another reason i want a carb. motor. i hate electronics
     
  19. StudNuts

    StudNuts Well-Known Member

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    Mar 21, 2005
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    Wendell
    There basically is no wiring. You got your distributor/motorcraft brain box, coil, starter - maybe electric choke if you got it and your starter. Wire in new guages and its ready. I dont know where people think all this wiring is involved. To make it even easier, get your self an msd box.
     
  20. rcassettyjr

    rcassettyjr New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Southport, NC
    I looked into this pretty extensively when I had my 89 YJ. Another guy on JU actually did it successfully at the same time I was working on mine and I ended up selling him some of my stuff when I scrapped my project.

    Here's some stuff to think about.

    To make this swap easy and cheaper you may want to consider finding a NV3500 from a TJ. Then get an NP231 from a YJ that had a 6cyl/AX-15. This will bolt to the skidplate/crossmember from a 6cyl/AX-15 YJ without modification and use a stock YJ/TJ clutch assy. You would also need the TC shifter from an AX-15/NP231 YJ. If your Jeep isn't lifted too much you could also pick up stock 6 cyl driveshafts and use them too. All of these are easily available stock parts that will bolt into place will save you from "nickle and diming" yourself to death from the bellhousing back. Think about it, everything you have there came factory in the YJ/TJ frame at some point and it is all bolt in with no fab required. Replacement parts are cheap and readily available both new and used. The only frame difference in your YJ is the motor mounts which you are going to cut off anyways. Bolt on the rest of the 6cyl parts and save the cash for making the engine happy. I considered doing this exact thing with mine before I scrapped the project (due to having to move to NC - not because of roadblocks in the project) except I was going to use the AX-15/231 I already had in my YJ and leave it all stock with the exception of going to the external slave clutch. Since the NV3500 series trannies are currently used behind Jeep I-6's and Dodge V8's from the factory, it would be a better choice plus since they are newer, you can get your hands on a low mileage unit. You end up with V8 power and a reliable overdrive 5 speed using stock pieces.

    For the motor, the 304/360/401 will bolt to the stock Jeep I-6 NV3500 bellhousing, no adapters required. All you need is an appropriate AMC V8 flywheel (AMC V8's are externally ballanced so it must match whichever engine you are using) and an appropriate size pilot bushing for whichever tranny you get. You can get exactly what you need from novak or advance adapters for less than a good lunch so why cheap out here. IIRC, they are less than $25 plus shipping. If your 360 came behind an automatic, you may have to remove the ring in the end of the crank where the converter snout seats before putting the pilot bushing in and flywheel on. For motor mounts, you can get ready made, weld in mounts for putting an AMC V8 in the YJ from Advance Adapters for like $150 IIRC. You can fab your own from the stock SJ units that the motor came with if you like. You will find that the SJ frame rails are a bit farther apart (less than 1" IIRC) so you have to make new frame side parts (or modify the existing ones). I looked into this and since either way you end up welding mounts onto the frame, I chose the AA units. They also have bolt holes so you can drill the frame and bolt them in to test fit everything, then weld them in place later to make them permanent. I could not see using old ones with 20 or 30 years of metal fatigue but that's up to you. Once you are ready to drop the motor in, bolt it to the tranny, bolt the tranny into the stock tranny mount location and lower the motor down to where the mounts are where they need to be on the frame rails. You can mark thier locations, pull the motor/tranny back out and then drill the frame for them. Once they are bolted to the frame rails drop the motor/tranny back in and make sure it all fits good. Use grade 8 bolts for the mounts but do not drive the Jeep until they are welded. They are just temporary and could shear off when the motor or frame twists (I know because some one actually did this and had to buy a new exhaust and oil pan when one of them broke and the motor fell onto the front pumpkin on his "test drive"). You can mock up the whole thing just pull the motor after you're done and weld them. It doesn't take but a couple of hours and is well worth it. It also gives you a chance to clean up the engine comaprtment, paint it, and eliminate any extra wires and such that you don't need anymore.

    Once the motor is in you can look at all the other things you need as systems. Consider each seperately and you will find things may come out better. Looking at the fuel system, you need to bring fuel up from the tank to the carb. If your YJ has an electric pump setup from the factory, you may be able to use that and just install an inline fuel pressure regulator. The carb on the V8 uses a lot less pressure than the fuel injection. You may have to change the routing of the line and plug the return line but it shouldn't be too hard. Make sure you leave the tank vent line hooked up the charcoal canister so the tank will still vent or you will have problems. You can vent the canister to the emissions port on the V8 and even use the stock V8 CTO switched to trigger the vent signal if you want. You can also just run straight vacuum to the signal port so it dumps when you start it but I am not sure how long the canister would last with constant vacuum on the signal switch. For ignition, I would suggest swapping to one of the aftermarket AMC HEI setups. You can pick these up for $150 and they do work great. All you need for wiring is a key on hot 12v feed for power to the unit (make sure it doesn't drop to 9v during cranking) and then plug your stock tach wire into the other side (if the 4 cyl YJ dist has a tach wire). Your stock tach will need modification to accomodate the V8 but instructions to do that are on the net. You could also use a cheap aftermarket tach and leave the stocker dead. It's up to you on that one. Next thing to look at would be power steering. Your YJ will have the newer style hoses and fittings. The SJ motor you have may have the older kind. One of them uses and o-ring setup and the other uses a flared fitting. You are left with 2 choices here. You can have custom hoses made with flared on one end and o-ring on the other, or you can swap in the steering box from the SJ the motor came from. If the motor donor is new enough, it may have the newer fittings and you would be able to use the YJ box but I can't remember the year they changed them. I think it was around 80 or 81 but I'm not sure. So if your motor donor was newer than the changeover year, your SJ's lines would fit the existing YJ box. For brakes, you just need to make sure you hook the YJ's booster vacuum line to the same place the donor line hooked to on the motor. For the cooling system, the YJ's heater core lines can hook up to the same places as the donor's lines did. You may have to get longer lines as the YJ ones will be pretty short from the 4cyl. A lot of people swap in a 3 core V8 CJ radiator since it is flange mountable like the YJ one. You may have to trim the flanges and opening a bit and drill some new holes but it is much cheaper than buying a conversion unit. You should be able to use stock CJ V8 hoses right from the local parts house. IIRC that is what the other guy did and he mounted his just like I said above. A lot of people swap in an electric fan at this point and the one from the Ford Taurus is quite popular. It's up to you on this one but if you do a lot of water crossings the electric is nice since you can shut it off. There are lots of writeups on the net for this swap.

    Had to cut this into 2 posts since the board has a 10k character limit per post...
     
  21. rcassettyjr

    rcassettyjr New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Southport, NC
    Continued from last post...

    Lets see, now you have spark, fuel, steering, brakes, and cooling. Now you need the starter. I am not familiar with the 4 cyl YJ starter wiring, but I looked into the wiring on my YJ's 6cyl and it was the same as the AMC V8. There is a connection from the battery to the starter and a wire from the key switch that makes it do it's thing. I doubt the 4cyl would be different. Your alternator will most likely be the same too. You should have a heavy wire from the charging post to the battery and the 2 control wires. My 6cyl had the exact same alternator as the donor so mine would just plug in. The 4cyl may have a different setup depending on the year of your donor. Most newer AMC V8's have a delco 10SI unit (or similar) so you might have to solder on a new plug depending on what your has. I doubt the process of the alternator has changed dramatically so the 2 wires most likely do the same thing just with a different plug. A YJ FSM would tell you which is which and then you just wire them to the corresponding terming on the alt plug. As an alternative, you could swap on a newer SJ alternator and bracket and just wire it like a carb'd YJ. Next you need gauges. As I said before, the stock tach can be modified for the V8 or you can swap in an aftermarket unit. The speedo works off the TC and the cable or sensor unit should go right in since you have basically the same TC. Your gas gauge shouldn't be affected. Your voltmeter runs off the vehicle existing wiring so it should be fine. The oil pressure and temp were the ones that were interesting. I was going to swap in an 89 360 into mine when I did the research. My YJ was an 89 so I turned to my FSM and looked for info on the senders and gauges. I found out the senders and gauges in the YJ used the same voltages and resistance ranges as the corresponding units in the 89 SJ. This seems to mean the SJ sender would work with the YJ gauge. With your YJ being a 4 cyl, you would need to look in your YJ FSM and find the same info then look in the FSM for the donor and see what the specs are for that years sensors. If they are the same, they should work. You may find that you need to swap the plug from the SJ onto the YJ harness as they may have changed. In my case the temp was the same but the oil was a different plug. I would have had to swap the plug from the SJ. No big deal here. IIRC the SJ had a low oil pressure cutoff switch. You may have wiring for this on the YJ. If not you can make something up to kill the igintion when the pressure is low or just leave it without.

    Well that leaves the exhaust. I was working on the exhaust info when I scrapped my project to move so I didn't complete that part but I'll pass on what I found out. I planned on using 80+ SJ manifolds for mine with a stock SJ y pipe. Since the 80+ SJ has a drivers side front diff, it is similar in routing to the YJ setup. What I had not figured out was exactly where the y-pipe dump would end up in relation to the stock YJ exhaust. The down pipe on my YJ bolted to the cat with a flange. If your YJ is similar it would seem the flange could be cut off the stock down pipe and attached to the SJ y pipe if it comes out in the correct location. Another thing to consider is the possible interference of the y pipe verses the bottom of the bellhousing or bottom of the front of the tranny. You would have to try this and see how it goes. If it fits, then you have it in with cheap stock parts. If not you have to get a shop to bend a custom one or you have to go with headers and a whole custom system. I have heard from those who went custom that there are issues with sneaking the driver's side pipe by the TC and also clearance on the front DS. IMO, a dual exhaust wasn't worth it.

    Well that should be about it for the major stuff. You will find there will be a bunch of little things to mess with but nothing are really major. Make sure you supply vacuum to the YJ HVAC and front axle setup (if you use the stock setup). You can go with a manual choke since yours doesn't have an electrical provision. If you use a TJ TC, it won't have the vacuum connector for the YJ front axle. If you are swapping front axles no big deal but you could either use a 6cyl YJ TC with matching 23 spline length (long or short) or you could use a posi lock setup. There is a guy with a 304/AX-15/NP231 combo with a stock YJ front axle/posi lock and an 8.8 out back. His works fine and he has yet to break anything in the front end. He almost immediately broke the D35 and then did the bolt in SUA 8.8 swap like I did. Both are still in his rig as far as I know. If you swap 80+ SJ axles in, then you don't have to worry about breakage or the vacuum stuff. Just watch out as some early 80's SJ's had the vacuum crap. The front is almost a bolt in on the YJ. You just have to mess with the cast in perch a bit and move the other like 1/2". The rear would need new perches and shock mounts. You couldget a nice pair of D44's front and read from an 86+ Grand Wagoneer for a couple hundred bucks and then get your gears and lockers later on.

    Well that should get you started if you choose to go that route. Most of the info will work for you regardless of what tranny/TC go with but I like to keep things cheap and simple. You could swap in the 3 speed/D20 combo from a pre 80 SJ but the TC ouput would be on the wrong side so you would end up looking to spend the money on an axle swap shortly thereafter. It would negate the vacuum issue for the front axle and TC but may cause exhaust issues. You might be able to do a pre 80 SJ setup but I am not sure as I never looked at one. Also, since the speedo in newer YJ's is electric (Sensor goes in where the cable used to) it would have to be changed to work with the D20.

    If the motor you have is good, consider selling the tranny and TC and using the money toward getting different parts. Just because you have them and they are free or already paid for, they may not make a good swap. You may spend more money and have more problems with those free parts then you would spend on an alternative. People may tell you the YJ parts I suggested will not hold up to the 360. There are quite a few people who have done this and the only ones blowing anything up are the guys building the AMC motors to make big horsepower and torque numbers. If you are using a stock, rebuilt or slightly warmed up AMC V8, you will be fine. If you build the motor to be extremely powerful, you would end up breaking those stock SJ parts anyways so you wouldn't want those either.

    You may spend a few hunderd on the 6 cyl parts I mentioned but you will easily spend that on custom parts and fab work adapting something else. If you shop around, you might be able to find them cheaper. I would suggest finding someone doing a non Jeep drivetrain swap in a 6cyl YJ and buy the whole tranny/TC/skid/driveshafts/shifters off of them, then sell the YJ AX-15 and get the 3500 and bellhousing/clutch from a TJ.

    Good luck with your swap.

    Bob C
    Southport, NC
     
  22. pheery

    pheery Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Location:
    High Point
    holy moly that was long

    i did a motor swap, (350 into a yj) and i am a retard, dont overthink it
     
  23. bigassedredjeep

    bigassedredjeep Well-Known Member

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    Mar 23, 2005
    Location:
    Middlesex, NC
    yes it was, and yes you are:lol:
     
  24. rcassettyjr

    rcassettyjr New Member

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    Jul 12, 2005
    Location:
    Southport, NC
    I agree with that. I couldn't believe I had to split it into 2 posts.

    Good for you. I hope it came out well. Have you put an AMC 360 in a YJ?

    Again, I agree.

    Since the person asking the question hasn't done a 350 swap into a YJ, isn't a retard like you, and doesn't want to get nickle and dimed to death, then the answer is to take the time to think out the swap before he/she does it.

    Should he/she decide to not do the 360 swap, I would hope that you would help them by suggesting all the things you did in your non-overthought YJ 350 swap.
     
  25. StudNuts

    StudNuts Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Location:
    Wendell
    Where do you get all this crazy wiring, getting nickel and dimed to death crap. The engine/trans/transfer case are precambrian and a dime a dozen. Whats going to nickel and dime to death? I dont understand the crap on this board. Whats wrong with the ole 360/727/(Insert T/Case here). Wow. Holy hard Batman. I got all the junk needed to do that swap in my parts bin. Not like its EFI with a computer controlled transmission.

    You only get nickel and dimed to death when cheap bastards on the board here try and piece sub-par junk they have laying around together.
     

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