9" vs. D60

StokesCo.94HB said:
why do as many people run 6o rears if 9" can be stronger, lighter and all with better clearance?
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I'd say the the main reason is that a lot of people thinking along these lines are going to be running an 8 lug front and it's probably going to be a 60, then you have gearing options up to 7.17:1. If your 8 lug front is a 44 at least you have the option of 5.89:1 gear ratios. The 9" tops out at 4.86:1 gear ratios and the pinion pilot bearing area may require grinding for clearance on the lower ratios! 60 ring is bigger, pinion is bigger, housing can be shaved for clearance, most of the 60s laying around are full float. Definately not knocking the 9", it is a FINE axle, and granted you can "build" a 9", but at what cost? I'd have to disagree with the others, I'd go with the 60 :)
 
If you want to run 60s, do it and don't look back. My '01 Nissan will be running an HP44 front and a 9" rear whenever I get to SASing it.

The arguments will go all over the place. Stock, bolt for bolt, the 9" has a better center section and the 60 has beefier tubes and shafts. The 9" can be built to equal the stock 60 housing/shaft situation, but the 60 cannot be built to equal the center section (3rd member) strength of the 9". And to just throw in a little jab from the Nissan crowd, the H233B under your rig now has a stronger center than the 60 will ever have. 9.25" ring gear baby! I wish I could keep mine but I can't get 5.38s for it.

As for ultimate strength, I guess you would have to beat on both to know for sure. You can upgrade the 9" to D60 sized axleshafts (35-spline, 1.50") to get a "stronger than stock 60" package that's lighter and easier to do custom suspension work with. Unless you are throwing the squirrels out from under the HB's hood, all you have to worry about is if the shafts can handle the tire size you want to run. 35-37" you'd be fine with stock 9" shafts on a light rig like your HB.
 
CYJKrawler said:
The 9" tops out at 4.86:1 gear ratios and the pinion pilot bearing area may require grinding for clearance on the lower ratios!
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Who ever told you this is wrong. One unique feature of the 9" is the wide range of gear ratios and no carrier break, from 2.84:1 all the way to 7.00:1. I will be running a 5.42 gearset on my 9" to go with my D44 5.38s.
 
OnlyOneDR said:
Who ever told you this is wrong. One unique feature of the 9" is the wide range of gear ratios and no carrier break, from 2.84:1 all the way to 7.00:1. I will be running a 5.42 gearset on my 9" to go with my D44 5.38s.
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I agree, i was planning on running 5.13s, and i know they have 5.13 for the D44's and the 9". Would run 5.38's but i figure that would be pushing it with a D44, im afraid id break the pinion
 
YAY for the H233B, im glad to hear from a nissan owner, im with u on that too, our stock axles arent really that bad, but i can install Gears and a spool in the 9 or the 60 for the price of our freaking gears, Nissan's aftermarket can suck it, $450 for just the gears, no aftermarket shafts, if it werent for that id run the stocker and a waggy D44, and the fact i want it wider cause its more stable, keeps the sheetmetal alittle straighter, and it just looks good.
 
OnlyOneDR said:
Who ever told you this is wrong. One unique feature of the 9" is the wide range of gear ratios and no carrier break, from 2.84:1 all the way to 7.00:1. I will be running a 5.42 gearset on my 9" to go with my D44 5.38s.
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I will admit to my error. Futher research shows ratios for the 9" all the way to 6.50:1 on several web sites! Didn't find any 7.00:1, do you have a link for that? My latest copy of 4x4 Garage shows up to 4:56:1 for the 9" and I was hasty to take their word for it. Like you said in another post, you can ding this back and forth all you want, everyone has an opinion. IMO a stock 60 with a 9.75" ring, a 1.626" 29 spline pinion and the common factory 30 spline axle shafts is going to be stronger than a stock 9 with a 9" ring, a 1.313 28 spline pinion and the common factory 28 spline axle shafts (http://www.drivetrain.com/ford9.html http://www.drivetrain.com/dana60.html). You admit as much in your post where you state, "The 9" can be built to equal the stock 60 housing/shaft situation". At 1.313" the 9" pinion would appear to be much smaller than any of the other Ford factory axle pinions and quite a bit smaller than the Dana 30 and Dana 35 pinions. That would swing me toward the 60 in a hurry. Fourwheeler magazine, already proven in this post to NOT know it all, recommends a max tire size of 37" for a stock 9" and 38.5" for a stock 60. We all know in the real world these are just suggestions depending on one's rig, trail conditions, driving habits, etc. One again, I humbly admit my erroneous publication of facts. Everyone must do their own reasearch and make a decision of what's best for them and their rig based on their findings.
 
CYJKrawler said:
I will admit to my error. Futher research shows ratios for the 9" all the way to 6.50:1 on several web sites! Didn't find any 7.00:1, do you have a link for that? My latest copy of 4x4 Garage shows up to 4:56:1 for the 9" and I was hasty to take their word for it. Like you said in another post, you can ding this back and forth all you want. Everyone has an opinion. IMO a stock 60 with a 9.75" ring and a 1.626" 29 spline pinion is going to be stronger than a stock 9 with a 9" ring and a 1.313 28 spline pinion (http://www.drivetrain.com/ford9.html http://www.drivetrain.com/dana60.html). You admit as much in your post where you state, "The 9" can be built to equal the stock 60 housing/shaft situation". At 1.313" the 9" pinion would appear to be much smaller than any of the other Ford factory axle pinions and quite a bit smaller than the Dana 30 and Dana 35 pinions. That would swing me toward the 60 in a hurry. Fourwheeler magazine, already proven in this post to NOT know it all, recommends a max tire size of 37" for a stock 9" and 38.5" for a stock 60. We all know in the real world these are just suggestions depending on one's rig, trail conditions, driving habits, etc. One again, I humbly admit my erroneous publication of facts. Everyone must do their own reasearch and make a decision of what's best for them and their rig based on their findings.
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From what ive researched, the pinions on the 9"s are freaking huge, much bigger than the pinion of the same gear for a d60, ive seen pics of a D35, D44, D60, 9' pinions side by side, all the same ratio and the 9" was huge

http://performanceunlimited.com/illustrations/gears.html

Kinda weird website, good comparison though, 9" is bigger than the D70
 
StokesCo.94HB said:
Kinda weird website, good comparison though, 9" is bigger than the D70
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Good info on the Performance Unlimited site! Of course they are selling the 9" :) Look at the pinion comparisons. See where the 9" pinion necks down? From what I have seen in the field, every shaft, be it pinion, axle, whatever, that necks down like that is prone to break at that point. I've done it several times myself! You asked in your original post for opinions. You even stated "i also know the D60 is a little stronger stock than the 9"". Many gave their reasons why they would go with the 9". I gave my reasons why I like the D60. In the end YOU have to make the call. Harley/dinette set, Harley/dinette set :) Really, you'll have a FINE axle under your rig whichever of the two you choose!
 
I'd say you will probably bust the D44 way before you kill either of the rears.

Just for reference I am building up a Full Width 9 for my Bronco. I gave $100 for a used gear (polished and deburred with only 500 mi) and $125 for the spool. I picked up the disk brakes for $75. I haven't bought the axles yet, but they run $225 for a set of alloy 31 splines. There is a conversion spool that will allow you to run 35 splines in the stock 3rd member if you think they are needed. But if your budget allows a nodular "H" case is almost indestructable. And yes I said almost because there are those who could tear up an anvil with a rubber mallet.
 
CYJKrawler said:
I will admit to my error. Futher research shows ratios for the 9" all the way to 6.50:1 on several web sites! Didn't find any 7.00:1, do you have a link for that? My latest copy of 4x4 Garage shows up to 4:56:1 for the 9" and I was hasty to take their word for it. Like you said in another post, you can ding this back and forth all you want, everyone has an opinion. IMO a stock 60 with a 9.75" ring, a 1.626" 29 spline pinion and the common factory 30 spline axle shafts is going to be stronger than a stock 9 with a 9" ring, a 1.313 28 spline pinion and the common factory 28 spline axle shafts (http://www.drivetrain.com/ford9.html http://www.drivetrain.com/dana60.html). You admit as much in your post where you state, "The 9" can be built to equal the stock 60 housing/shaft situation". At 1.313" the 9" pinion would appear to be much smaller than any of the other Ford factory axle pinions and quite a bit smaller than the Dana 30 and Dana 35 pinions. That would swing me toward the 60 in a hurry. Fourwheeler magazine, already proven in this post to NOT know it all, recommends a max tire size of 37" for a stock 9" and 38.5" for a stock 60. We all know in the real world these are just suggestions depending on one's rig, trail conditions, driving habits, etc. One again, I humbly admit my erroneous publication of facts. Everyone must do their own reasearch and make a decision of what's best for them and their rig based on their findings.
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Yeah, because everything we run is stock...:lol: I like the weight savings simply because what we do is climb. Well, most of us climb...
 
im leaning more for the 9", cause im only going with 35's, still dont know yet though, i gotta make sure what front axle i can get and all that, but thanks for all the help.
 
CYJKrawler said:
I will admit to my error. Futher research shows ratios for the 9" all the way to 6.50:1 on several web sites! Didn't find any 7.00:1, do you have a link for that?
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Sure do: http://www.reiderracing.com/ford9c.htm

To address your concerns on the pinion shaft diameter. The reason why the Dana (and other) units need such large shafts is simply because they are being axially loaded with support from only the rear pinion bearing. Common slang would call this "single shear". The 9" pinion head is supported from both the rear pinion bearing as well as the rear pinion support bearing and housing on the opposite side of the pinion head ("double shear"). This additional support prevents much of the pinion head deflection that causes torsional failures of pinion shafts and tooth breakage.

Also keep in mind torque multiplication. The pinion shaft only receives what the engine can give it, and the axle shafts have to take the torque as multiplied through the gearset. Just another reason why it doesn't have to be as big as it would seem at first glance.

Again though, as we have already agreed, each have their strengths and weaknesses and one's own judgement can determine what suits them best.

Stokes if you are only going to run 5.13s why not just pony up for the good Nissan gears and drop a lock-right in it? Right now I am running a Detroit in mine, kicks ass. Much less work and hassle than building and swapping in another axle. I guess one advantage could be if that is your DD, you can build the other without any downtime on your truck.

Do you post on any of the Nissan sites like 4x4parts, NOR, NOAS, or others?
 
OnlyOneDR said:
Sure do: http://www.reiderracing.com/ford9c.htm

To address your concerns on the pinion shaft diameter. The reason why the Dana (and other) units need such large shafts is simply because they are being axially loaded with support from only the rear pinion bearing. Common slang would call this "single shear". The 9" pinion head is supported from both the rear pinion bearing as well as the rear pinion support bearing and housing on the opposite side of the pinion head ("double shear"). This additional support prevents much of the pinion head deflection that causes torsional failures of pinion shafts.

Also keep in mind torque multiplication. The pinion shaft only receives what the engine can give it, and the axle shafts have to take the torque as multiplied through the gearset. Just another reason why it doesn't have to be as big as it would seem at first glance.

Again though, as we have already agreed, each have their strengths and weaknesses and one's own judgement can determine what suits them best.

Stokes if you are only going to run 5.13s why not just pony up for the good Nissan gears and drop a lock-right in it? Right now I am running a Detroit in mine, kicks ass. Much less work and hassle than building and swapping in another axle. I guess one advantage could be if that is your DD, you can build the other without any downtime on your truck.

Do you post on any of the Nissan sites like 4x4parts, NOR, NOAS, or others?
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i go on nissan4wheelers.com, the reason im going with a new axle in the rear is because the gears, lockers are so expensive for the nissan stuff, i can get a spool and gears for the 9 for less than just the nissan gears. Im sure its also almost inpossible to find spare and replacement shafts, and no aftermarket ones that im aware of. i also want the wider stance too. I dont dislike the stock rear, but i got the 9 for free, so why not, its not that much work to swap it out.
 
I won't argue on building the 9" since I am doing it too, but on that Nissan rear, shafts are easy to find, the lock-right is less than $300, hell when I bought my Detroit I got it brand-new for $375. You could even swap to a 99 Frontier 31-spline rear to get a wider rear axle and keep your 3rd member. Lots of options, but of course they all cost more $$ than it sounds like you want to spend. I don't blame you.
 
Been there done that and broke both. I haven't read the 3 pages, so here's the facts. Someone may have alread spilled it out. The 9" has a bigger shaft and virtually unbreakable ring and pinion. The D60 has a little smaller shaft and similar size R&P but weaker design. The D60 keeps going if you break a shaft and the wheel doesn't fall off. Also double bearings take a beating much better than a 9" since it's full float rather than semi. Hard hits are very hard for a 9". For racing 9" all the way. For mild off road 9" all the way. For wild off road skip the D60 and get a D70 which is bullet proof. A 14bolt is almost as strong and a Sterling 10.25 is another good option.

With that said I'm building a D60 rear with D70 shafts so I have great clearance with the strenght of D70 shafts.
 
OnlyOneDR said:
I won't argue on building the 9" since I am doing it too, but on that Nissan rear, shafts are easy to find, the lock-right is less than $300, hell when I bought my Detroit I got it brand-new for $375. You could even swap to a 99 Frontier 31-spline rear to get a wider rear axle and keep your 3rd member. Lots of options, but of course they all cost more $$ than it sounds like you want to spend. I don't blame you.
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yeah i thought about using a new rear end out of the Xterras and some of the frontiers since there 63" wms-wms, they would match up good with that D44 i got for sale, was looking for one with 4.88's and maybe the factory locker or limited slip, but i was still looking at $700+ easily and that would be a deal, so i just decided to build either the D60 or the 9" i already have
 
2 words- Full float
Had a built SF 9", loved it, but the thought of the tire/wheel combo leaving the party got me all tore up. Ended up trading the 9" for a built D60 and still came out on top vs making the 9" FF, which of course can be done- and highly recommended ($$). Remember you can break ANYTHING, just depends on how much rick you are willing to take in the worst wheeling spots and how you get your rig home- thus full float fo me.
 
GubNi said:
For wild off road skip the D60 and get a D70 which is bullet proof.
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Except for that whole twisting-off-the-pinion-shaft-b/c-its-the-same-damn-size-as-a-60 thing.
 
Chuckman said:
2 words- Full float
Had a built SF 9", loved it, but the thought of the tire/wheel combo leaving the party got me all tore up. Ended up trading the 9" for a built D60 and still came out on top vs making the 9" FF, which of course can be done- and highly recommended ($$). Remember you can break ANYTHING, just depends on how much rick you are willing to take in the worst wheeling spots and how you get your rig home- thus full float fo me.
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While I'll agree that a FF axle in the event of a break would keep you more mobile, but the "tire/wheel combo leaving the party" arguement is moot. It's a fine design, and I have never heard of any Toyota (for example) having the tire/wheel come off and the flange staying attached.

Your arguement is similar to saying "Nope, I don't trust that 40 spline c-clip axle shaft.. because C-clips suck"
 
I am running a 9" rear with 36" Iroks 31 spline and a Detroit. It has been a very solid axle. The axle shafts are the stock ones that came with the axle. Another guy I ride with has Maxxis 37" and is very heavy on the skinny pedal and has had no issues.

Troy
 
Rich said:
I have never heard of any Toyota (for example) having the tire/wheel come off and the flange staying attached.
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Which is completely useful and pertinent info, since we're talking about 9" and D60 axles.

A 9" shaft will break at the flange, allowing the tire to fall off. It's more common to break at the splines from torsion loads, but a good hard side-load on the tire will snap a shaft just as quickly.

It's less common... but if it became an issue, I'd be more willing to weld some spindles to a 9" housing than to swap the 9" for a Dana.
 
BUCKETOBOLTS said:
If you think you need a full floater than here you go.
http://www.stockcarproducts.com/rear12f.htm
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Having worked on a short track car, I wouldn't use a FF kit for their application for ours.. the parts are built with weight as a priority first, not strength

Saf-t scissors said:
Which is completely useful and pertinent info, since we're talking about 9" and D60 axles.
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similar design in the method of axle retention, aren't they? Thought so, so STFU.
 
I looked at the FF 9" kits down at Muscle Motorsports for converting the rear that I had, and compared to the beef of the D60 spindles AND cost, it was easy to decide. I was also looking at making either option a rear disc. Lets see. Found a D60 = $250 WITH disc brakes (large bore version ready for 35 spline shafts) add another $100 for shafts and thats easy math. Plus you have to factor in tube 'bashablilty' of the 2 options. Weight is a factor sure, but for beatablity and cost, I liked the 35 spline '60. The total cost of converting MY 9" to FF,disc'd, correct hubbed 9" kit blew my budget.
another $0.02 to consider IF you look at converting in the future. Sure there may be some guys on here that can make on up, but that wasnt an option at the time.
 
If your worried about the beef here is another option.

http://www.bc4x4.com/tech/2002/ff9/

On the early Bronco board I visit there are several guys racing Broncos. A couple desert and couple in the tuff truck. I've heard them all say that if not braced with a truss the D44 housing will split at the long tube before the rear breaks. They, too, are divided on the floater conversion. Some run them some don't. None really talk about rear axle trouble...
 
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