Ceramic tile guestions?

jlshermanjr

Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2007
Location
brevard nc
I have my own home improvement busisness. We do all kinds of work, siding, windows, roofing,
remodeling, new construction, hardwood flooring, ceramic, plumbing and a little electrical. Basically everything except masonary and concrete. This is my problem. On the last 2 jobs where I done ceramic tile, The tile did not want to stay down. The first job was a kitchen that we gutted and remodeled. We removed the old partical board, down to the original oak planks layed on a 45 degree angle. On top of the oak planks, used liguid nails under Advantech (3/4") and nailed down about every 10" square. Then we added 1/4" Hardy backer, liguid nails and nailed every 6"-8" square. I used the Grey Megabond from Lowes, didn't hold. The house had heat and the tile was in the house for several days before. I had to go back in and take all the tile up and pressure wash the back side to get it clean. None of the tiles broke in the process. Relayed 300 sq ft of tile for free. I used the expensive premixed thin set from Lowes the second time. Haven't heard of any more problems yet. The 2nd job was remodeling 2 bathrooms. Gutted the baths to the joists, and layed 2 layers of 1/2" plywood, liquid nailed and nailed. Then 1/4" Hardy backer liquid nailed and nailed. I used the cheaper premixed thinset from Lowes this time. The house had heat and the tiles were in the home for several days. Each of the baths hed several tiles that came loose. We stayed off the tiles for more than 24hrs. On both jobs the tiles came up without breaking any of them. You can see the Backer imprint in the thinset on the back of the tiles.
All the thinset was on the tile and none on the backer when I got them up. The only common
thread is the 1/4" Hardy backer. Is anyone else having this problem? I'm looking for ideas.
HELP!!!
Thanks Johnny
828-883-7375
 
I would use Durabond 1/2 wonderboard, it is a real concrete board with a fiberglass mesh, not a masonite. Using 1/4 on the floor it will flex and eventually break the tiles, regardless of the underlayment or type of board the tile is glued to. For thin set, i think its Bonsal for ceramics, but for natural types of tile make sure you use the correct type of thin set. Your trowel should be a 1/4x1/4x1/4 for ceramics. Since your close to Asheville you might give WNC Ceramics a call. Hope this helps.
 
Im no pro, but had the same results in our kitchen.

I finally pulled the tiles up ripped up the hardi backer went back with 3/8" cement board and so far so good.

In my experience the thinset (I mixed my own) didn't bond to the backer not the tiles, when I puled up tiles the thinset was still tight there.

All that said i have talked to several flooring guys who use the hardi backer all the time without trouble, so who knows...

Dylan, got anything to add?
 
Im no pro, but had the same results in our kitchen.

I finally pulled the tiles up ripped up the hardi backer went back with 3/8" cement board and so far so good.

In my experience the thinset (I mixed my own) didn't bond to the backer not the tiles, when I puled up tiles the thinset was still tight there.

All that said i have talked to several flooring guys who use the hardi backer all the time without trouble, so who knows...

Dylan, got anything to add?
 
I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who installs ceramic for a living, and he's very good.
He said, that with the Hardy Backer, you must wet the backer before laying the tile. He said that the Hardy Backer absorbes the water so fast from the thinset, that it will not bond to the backer.
This seems to reason, the thinset is bonded to the tile and not the backer.
 
use cement board, 1/2" for floors and you can use 1/4" for walls. When attaching the cement board to the floor, float it in with standard tile mortar and screw it down in about avery 6". Use the same standard mortar for the tile on the cement board. It sounds like your mortar is too dry and is not adhering to the sub floor.

I did my kitchen and dining room 2 years ago and have had zero problems.

I'd get away from using the liquid nails. It has some water in it and when it sets, may cause adhesion issues with the mortar. I've never been a fan of liquid nails for anything and never found that the correct method of fastening materials ever fail.
 
also, you should also put the mortar on the backer board AND the tile for best effectiveness. Use a wood block as a cushion and tap with a deadblow hammer to help "set" the tile in the mortar.
 
every ceramic floor i've done i have laid 1/2" durock then applid the thinset to the floor then laid the tile on it..... never had problems with it coming up.... have had to tear some up for other reasons and it held damn good..... i agree with the above post that 1/4" is too thin for floor..... no matter how solid you think the floor is, it's gonna flex, the 1/4" will give, the 1/2" durock, not so much.....
 
Also, mortar between the subfloor and the backer board will help to stiffen the floor up to keep from flexing, which keeps from cracking and popping tiles loose
 
I'm on a slab foundation so once I level the concrete slab, I just tile over it with thinset. No issues yet with two bathrooms - one tiled 3 years ago and one two years ago. I've never used hardi backer but I have used 1/2" durock on other jobs and haven't had any issues.
 
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