Climax Race Buggy

GubNi

GubNi

8 lug disc brakes?
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Location
Jonesborough, TN
On black Friday I drive 15 hours to Tulsa OK and bought this buggy. It's a race ready rig and I hope to compete in it. I don't expect to win often, but I think I can win on occasion. I have been 4-wheeling since Tellico was open and have always enjoyed the extreme part of pushing my machine to make an obstacle. My day job has my emotions fairly dulled so 4-wheeling is the one thing that gets me excited.

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Current Specs:
14 bolt front with solid outters and RCV shafts
6.0 LQ9 motor with LS6 heads and intake
TH400
Atlas 3.0
14b rear

Here's my current to do list. Any comments are welcome as I learn a lot from other peoples tech.

Changes:
1. Lower the radiator - Due to overheating the previous owner raised the radiator almost to the top of the cage. That didn't fix it so he put better fans on. That did fix the overheating, but never lowered the radiator.
2. Change fan and radiator style trans cooler to 36" finned tube style. I need to to this to have the extra room to move the radiator down. I don't think the fan style is needed and if so I will relocate it somewhere else.
3. Install rear view mirror. This is something I add to every rig and I really enjoy having. When on the trail I always try to keep the guy behind me in sight.
4. Raise the roof. I'm 6'2" and right now if I straighten my neck I hit the roof. The seats are at 25* and I prefer 35*. Changing this will make less that I have to raise the roof, but still I will have to cut some tube and splice in a domed roof. I prefer a domed roof as I feel it's safer anyway.
5. Change alternator brackets. It has LSS brackets to move the alternator out more for front air filter. This resulted in some goofy plumbing fittings being used on the radiator to chassis hose. The intake has been turned around the the filter is now in the cab. I am going to get some different brackets to move the alternator back and clean up the look there. Possible bracket kit --link
6. Trim and paint hood skins. There are two hood skins that are not installed. They are black and need to be painted white and then trimmed as needed to go around the PSC reservoir.
7. Swap out stickies for boggers. I plan to keep the stickies, but I am a big fan of cut boggers and I have a new set of skinny 44's that I want to put on it. I'll try both, but most places I go have more loose soil than dry rocks.
8. Catch can for motor - I had a friend tell me these motors need a catch can for PVC oil if you run them hard. I need to look into it more.
9. Window nets - For racing I need window nets.
10. It has stock chevy front brakes. Of course since I am a brake guy www.lugnut4x4.com I am going to put a 3/4 ton conversion on it and lighten it by 41lbs.
11. Install passenger handle and foot hole in passenger side skin.
12. Figure out storage. Most of the time I will use it for trail riding and need storage for lunch, snacks, coats, and etc. I can rework the console above the rear drive shaft for some room and then maybe above the gas tank on each side.
13. Rewire tail lights. Right now they only come on with rock lights. I think they should come on with headlights and hook up to brake also.
14. Redo fuel vent. For racing there is a specific route for the fuel vent so I have to change that.
15. It seems to lean a little to one side. I need to check pressure in all 4 corners.
16. The turning radius is awful. It's 120" WB which is longer than I am used to, but still this is way off. I looked at it and the front axle is tilted 5* forward for no real reason. I should be able to adjust the links to fix that. There may be more work needed to get the turning radius where I want.
 
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GubNi said:
I read a wikipedia article on Ackerman angle a few days ago, but was not able to apply theory to real world, lol.
Click to expand...

Draw a line through the tie rod mount and through the lower kingpin.

Correct Ackerman would mean that the line from driver side and passenger side would connect at rear differential.

When the tie rod is in front of the axle, this means the tie rod mounting holes are outboard of the kingpins/ball joints.
 
Mac5005 said:
Draw a line through the tie rod mount and through the lower kingpin.

Correct Ackerman would mean that the line from driver side and passenger side would connect at rear differential.

When the tie rod is in front of the axle, this means the tie rod mounting holes are outboard of the kingpins/ball joints.
Click to expand...

I could see that affecting high speed steering but not so much turning radius because regardless of the Ackerman angle his turning till his on the steering stops. Unless you can explain it better than my understanding of it. I had plenty of people say mine was going to be all messed up on my jeep doing my steering like I did, but I haven't noticed a difference at all. The fact Chevy used the same steering angles on a 1/2 reg cab short bed truck as a suburban throws a lot of it out the window. But I'm completely open to more info on it than what I've read and experienced.
 
Mac5005 said:
Draw a line through the tie rod mount and through the lower kingpin.

Correct Ackerman would mean that the line from driver side and passenger side would connect at rear differential.

When the tie rod is in front of the axle, this means the tie rod mounting holes are outboard of the kingpins/ball joints.
Click to expand...

X2. Tie rod outside the kingpins when in front, and inboard when behind the axle.

iwaxmyjimmy said:
I could see that affecting high speed steering but not so much turning radius because regardless of the Ackerman angle his turning till his on the steering stops. Unless you can explain it better than my understanding of it. I had plenty of people say mine was going to be all messed up on my jeep doing my steering like I did, but I haven't noticed a difference at all. The fact Chevy used the same steering angles on a 1/2 reg cab short bed truck as a suburban throws a lot of it out the window. But I'm completely open to more info on it than what I've read and experienced.
Click to expand...

The Ackermann effects the amount of steering of the knuckles/steering arms. You want the inside tire to turn more than the outside tire. The inside tire should pull the outside tire through the turn. Factory steering is setup like this. In your example, I would be willing to bet the steering was designed for the shorter wb, and therefore still work on a longer wb. High traction plus open differentials minimizes the difference here also. I'm not sure how you did the steering on your jeep or why ppl didn't agree with it.

If your double ended ram is mounted in front of the tierod hole, or your tierod holes aren't outside of the kingpin (in front) you will have neutral or negative Ackermann. This will cause the inside tire to turn the same or less than the outside. In this case the inside tire is resisting the turn.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
X2. Tie rod outside the kingpins when in front, and inboard when behind the axle.



The Ackermann effects the amount of steering of the knuckles/steering arms. You want the inside tire to turn more than the outside tire. The inside tire should pull the outside tire through the turn. Factory steering is setup like this. In your example, I would be willing to bet the steering was designed for the shorter wb, and therefore still work on a longer wb. High traction plus open differentials minimizes the difference here also. I'm not sure how you did the steering on your jeep or why ppl didn't agree with it.

If your double ended ram is mounted in front of the tierod hole, or your tierod holes aren't outside of the kingpin (in front) you will have neutral or negative Ackermann. This will cause the inside tire to turn the same or less than the outside. In this case the inside tire is resisting the turn.
Click to expand...


But would scrub radius matter more for low speed turning?

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1450385657.585207.jpg


My tie rod is mounted in the drag link hole of a JK knuckle on both sides. Only thing that has effected my turning radius was moving my steering stops out to keep my 37s from hitting the frame at full stuff.
 
iwaxmyjimmy said:
But would scrub radius matter more for low speed turning?

View attachment 204596

My tie rod is mounted in the drag link hole of a JK knuckle on both sides. Only thing that has effected my turning radius was moving my steering stops out to keep my 37s from hitting the frame at full stuff.
Click to expand...

scrub radius does matter, and is typically high on most offroad rigs. Ideally you get everything as best as possible.

Based on the picture the hole you are using is still outside the balljoint or atleast inline, so it is likely little effect on your turning. You would notice a difference if you went from negative to positive or visa-versa.
 
If I drew straight lines from the draglink hole through the ball joints it would be ok for like a 140" wheel base when I did the math for it.
 
iwaxmyjimmy said:
But would scrub radius matter more for low speed turning?

View attachment 204596

My tie rod is mounted in the drag link hole of a JK knuckle on both sides. Only thing that has effected my turning radius was moving my steering stops out to keep my 37s from hitting the frame at full stuff.
Click to expand...
The speed doesn't matter, the higher the steering angle, the more important proper Ackerman becomes.

Ackerman relates to steering angle not speed.

The more angle, the more important it is to get Ackerman correct.

You can change the Ackerman by placement of a double ended ram and it's relationship to the tie rod mounting holes.

As you turn, the tie rod gets closer to the axle. This is why the mounting location of a double ended ram is critical to maintaining proper Ackerman angle.

The short tie rods on either side of the ram change angle as you turn.

Factory trucks are a moot comparison. To cut costs for production rates, gm and other oems got the Ackerman "close" but not correct, that is a compromise for all wheelbases. They aren't going to produce different knuckles for each wheelbase application.

Another test is to rub trans fluid on the tire, and drive slow and turn on concrete. Look.at the tread marks. If you have tons of scrub, the tread image will be greatly distorted.

Ackerman isn't too complicated.

A 4 wheel vehicle turning in a circle, has 4 different radii. Each tire is turning on a different diameter circle.

The smallest radius is the Inside rear, then the inside front, then the outside rear, then the outside front is the largest. Wheel base can change this greatly as well.

This means the inside tire needs to turn sharper than outside tire, to minimize scrub and minimize overall turning radius.

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Last edited:
Mac5005 said:
The speed doesn't matter, the higher the steering angle, the more important proper Ackerman becomes.

Ackerman relates to steering angle not speed.

The more angle, the more important it is to get Ackerman correct.

You can change the Ackerman by placement of a double ended ram and it's relationship to the tie rod mounting holes.

As you turn, the tie rod gets closer to the axle. This is why the mounting location of a double ended ram is critical to maintaining proper Ackerman angle.

The short tie rods on either side of the ram change angle as you turn.

Factory trucks are a moot comparison. To cut costs for production rates, gm and other oems got the Ackerman "close" but not correct, that is a compromise for all wheelbases. They aren't going to produce different knuckles for each wheelbase application.

Another test is to rub trans fluid on the tire, and drive slow and turn on concrete. Look.at the tread marks. If you have tons of scrub, the tread image will be greatly distorted.

Ackerman isn't too complicated.

A 4 wheel vehicle turning in a circle, has 4 different radii. Each tire is turning on a different diameter circle.

The smallest radius is the Inside front, then the inside rear, then the outside rear, then the outside front is the largest. This means the inside tire needs to turn sharper than outside tire, to minimize scrub and minimize overall turning radius.

View attachment 204603

View attachment 204605

View attachment 204606
Click to expand...
No shit! I learned something today. That's really cool, and the buggy Mr. G.
 
I work for a class 8 truck manufacturer. Obviously there is a HUGE range of wheelbases from a day cab to the longest sleeper. To compensate for this, there are three different steering axle packages each with different ackerman angles designed into them to cover a specific range of wheelbases.
 
Mac5005 said:
The smallest radius is the Inside front, then the inside rear, then the outside rear, then the outside front is the largest. This means the inside tire needs to turn sharper than outside tire, to minimize scrub and minimize overall turning radius.
Click to expand...
Great post. One thing to point out is that the smallest radius is the inside rear, just ask any curb at the exit of a drive-thru. The next smallest could be inside front or outside rear depending on wheelbase and how sharp the wheels are turned.
 
Mac5005 said:
The speed doesn't matter, the higher the steering angle, the more important proper Ackerman becomes.

Ackerman relates to steering angle not speed.

The more angle, the more important it is to get Ackerman correct.

You can change the Ackerman by placement of a double ended ram and it's relationship to the tie rod mounting holes.

As you turn, the tie rod gets closer to the axle. This is why the mounting location of a double ended ram is critical to maintaining proper Ackerman angle.

The short tie rods on either side of the ram change angle as you turn.

Factory trucks are a moot comparison. To cut costs for production rates, gm and other oems got the Ackerman "close" but not correct, that is a compromise for all wheelbases. They aren't going to produce different knuckles for each wheelbase application.

Another test is to rub trans fluid on the tire, and drive slow and turn on concrete. Look.at the tread marks. If you have tons of scrub, the tread image will be greatly distorted.

Ackerman isn't too complicated.

A 4 wheel vehicle turning in a circle, has 4 different radii. Each tire is turning on a different diameter circle.

The smallest radius is the Inside rear, then the inside front, then the outside rear, then the outside front is the largest. Wheel base can change this greatly as well.

This means the inside tire needs to turn sharper than outside tire, to minimize scrub and minimize overall turning radius.

View attachment 204603

View attachment 204605

View attachment 204606
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining it a little better for me. Makes me want to get some string and see how far off my Ackerman angle is.
 
Well out of 23 that raced last weekend only 13 made it to the top. I finished 10th. The competition was much tougher than I expected so I am proud that I made it to the top. I made some rooky mistakes and my buggy needs some more work, but overall for the first race I did good.

Also there already is a Climax buggy, so I have to come up with a new name.

Pics and video are on my Facebook. www.facebook.com/gubni
 
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