Coal Ash

kaiser715

kaiser715

Doing hard time
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Location
7, Pocket, NC
OK, all great minds (?) of NC4x4....

They are pushing hard to dump coal ash here in Lee County. We have old clay pits from brick manufacturing that they say are ideal for a coal ash landfill (clay basin = containment).

I see the good and bad on both sides. Help me get off the fence...
 
Lee County is doomed for environmental impacts due to the good possibility of fracking for natural gas coming to town to begin with. I hate it for every generation to come, but money wins over the environment...
 
Fracking is safe. Period.

The Kingston thing happened in a dewatering pond. Similar to what happened up on the Dan. What they're talking about doing in Lee County is putting ash in a hole and covering over it with dirt. Not the same thing.
 
kaiser715 said:
OK, all great minds (?) of NC4x4....

They are pushing hard to dump coal ash here in Lee County. We have old clay pits from brick manufacturing that they say are ideal for a coal ash landfill (clay basin = containment).

I see the good and bad on both sides. Help me get off the fence...
Click to expand...

Here's my thoughts. Dumping the ash is going to happen. It's just like a landfill. Nobody wants it on their property but you have to put it somewhere. An old clay pit would be an ideal place. Clay particles are the finest of soil particles and create the best natural barrier. All landfills are created using clay material. Now they include liners to help with leachate collection and treatment. So back to my original statement, would I want it in my backyard? No, but I like electricity and heat.
 
Exactly, slurry vs. what they'll be putting in the hole are two different things. The slurry has a viscosity that will allow it to flow, like a half melted milkshake. The stuff that they will be hauling and filling with is dried out more like wet sand. They actually use alot of it in the production of concrete, but it's dried out and pulverized to a fine powder called fly ash. Like said above clay is the best "natural" containment and it has to go somewhere. Im sure or I hope that there will be specific methods for runoff containment, but then again that's why we're in this predicament in the first place. I, like everyone else, I like my electricity and I like it cheap. Yes I think they should improve on the methods of production but until then we have to take care of the problem we have now. Why they were allowed to store the ash in such great quantities near rivers or any water source in the first place is beyond me.....
 
shawn said:
Fracking is safe. Period.

The Kingston thing happened in a dewatering pond. Similar to what happened up on the Dan. What they're talking about doing in Lee County is putting ash in a hole and covering over it with dirt. Not the same thing.
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So you are saying that Lee County will turn into one big ash-hole?!?!?!

Nothing to add - just thought being back in Middle School was fun for a second.
 
Let's see where this thread goes and I'm sure some other forum members would be interested as well ;)


The ash going to Sanford will basically be going in a landfill. The ash is from a long time ago where storage wasn't as regulated as it is now and it needs to go somewhere. Much of the ash is stored adjacent to a river because many power plants are located on rivers for a water source. Everyone wants the issues corrected but nobody wants it in their backyard even if it's 100% safe, contained, non-toxic, not smelly, and not visible.

I was reading an article about the proposed ash landfills in the Sanford paper back in the first week of December that was entertaining. Basically, everything was state regulated and not county regulated and the county commissioner was pissed because everyone else was getting paid (legitfully) but he hasn't seen any $$$ and basically publically asked where his handout was!

I literally was dumbfounded that he would say that on record!
 
When I moved to Durham before this fracking thing even came up, I knew I lived on Martian soil. Plus I had old goobers rattling off crazy stuff about "the basin I lived on" when I had yard sales and such. :eek: Geology has always intrigued me so I did my own studies, experiments and conclusions on the Triassic Basins being I live on the Durham Sub Triassic Basin (sister to the Sanford Sub Triassic Basin). Other words "ours is white and blue clods, yall's is dark and light red". LOL

My conclusion is that The Durham Basin came from a different direction being the color differences. divide the nation in half and look at the dirt colors. Durham came as far as New York where as Sanford came as far as Kentucky. The dirt in Sanford is a tad different but basically the same consistency besides a tad more rock of different color. I have some of both right up on a shelf here at work for discussion. Basically, Durham matches the Eno Northward where Sanford matches the Yadkin and Westward. These basins are truly some amazing shit! Funny though, there was hardly no information to be had on the internet until fracking idea came up. Now you can read about the basins all day long.

Although the dirt is the same consistency as baby powder when ground down and acts as a containment, it still does not contain 100% when it is saturated in cold temperatures. Eventually what goes into the ground will make it's way to the aqueducts at the bottom unless some sort of underlayment is in place that is 100% certified and guaranteed. If there is a such thing???

I can show you a pony ride that will blow your mind. I always like to spill out some water on the ground when working at the house or shop with people that don't know about it first thing in the morning on a dry Summer day. I do a noticeable "Watch out for the water I just spilled!". Then come quitting time 8 hours later, I say the exact same thing and every drop is still there.:smokin:

I don't think it's safe anywhere but if it has to go somewhere, the Triassic Basins are the best answer for the first 100-200 years. Then when it finally reaches the water at the bottom, Southern Middle NC will be piping it's water to shower from the mountains.:beer:
 
Almost bought a house 1.9 miles from were they are planning to dump the ash. Glad that didn't work out. Now live in western Lee county.
 
I've been told by locals that in the 60's when Sanford became "brick central", they tried it in Durham and nobody liked the blue and white and it was un-sellable. Even the local Tobacco Processing Plants preferred the red and paid to ship it from Sanford instead of making it local.

On 4x4 topic, the soil is the very reason for the competitiveness and growth of David Jones's - Mud Motorsports Complex in Sanford. Add water and it's the slickest dirt ever.

A farmer in Durham told me that in the Summer you can't drive a nail in it. In the Winter you can't drive a tractor in it. It's an instant "stuck" if you pull off side the road in Winter time. Saw a Utility worker just yesterday buried just beside the road. Where as in the Summer digging a hole requires dynamite.

You can take some clods and sand them down with course sand paper to a micro-fine powder. Put it in a bowl over half full and add the rest with water. Place it in the fridge for a few days until it absorbs. Then remove the bowl and place in a warm room. Then 3-4 days later carve out the middle and take it out of the bowl. Then you have a clay pot that will hold water almost forever as long as it stays warm.

The conversation gets started when I'm asked about my "funny looking rocks" on my shelf...:rolleyes: Although it's 100% extra fine dirt, not a single grain comes off by handling it in a warm office.

And it's that way for at least a mile straight down... You will encounter pebble rocks in thin layers but nothing bigger than a fist. If you jump up and down over and over in one spot in the winter anywhere, it forms a mud puddle.

I see the exact same formation method on dirt roads as I did when I was into spelunking. Kinda like a sea shell design and actually on higher ground.

I think if the earth is around for another 100,000 years, the basins will become solid granite.

There's an artesian well in the woods on my road that used to serve every house down my road. There's still pieces of waterline underground that used to go through my yard. It was dug up and scattered all through my woods sometime well before I bought it.

Frost line is said to be 6" if compacted.
 
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6BangBronk said:
On 4x4 topic, the soil is the very reason for the competitiveness and growth of David Jones's - Mud Motorsports Complex in Sanford. Add water and it's the slickest dirt ever.
Click to expand...


The guy from The Monkees is into Mud Motorsports now?!?!?!?! That dude gets around!!!!! Pretty good for a dead guy... :)

aimages.laweekly.com_imager_b_original_2408439_08a3_jonescornflakes.jpg
 
To add to that, I've also been told the reason there's a lot of vineyards around me is because the poorer the dirt, the better the taste of a grape. They say Durham wine ranks right up there with Argentina. The only vegetable you can grow in it straight is a hot pepper due to the low absorption. Anything else requires a mixture of less than 40% original dirt as sold by all the local soil farms. After 3 years of trial and error, we do a raised garden with imported mixture from a Horse Farm tilled in.

We use a runoff coefficient of 0.01% when we do drainage calculations if we know we're developing in Triassic soils. Raleigh woodlands is 0.20-0.25% in comparison. Runoff is almost instantaneous at my house. I've been told "I'm a smart man" a few times by older local gentlemen for installing 8" drainage around my house to a junction box that exits out with a 12" to the bottom of the hill.

The basins are 100-200 foot lower than surrounding areas. Wake county average is 350'above sea level. Downtown Raleigh is 400'+ My house sits right at 210'+/- and I'm 20 minutes away.

Standard Septic fields is non-existant in Triassic Basins unless dirt was illegally imported before 1954. The state of NC is set to take over Durham and Sanford's sanitation in 2017.

City of Durham recently decreased the impervious for Triassic soils to 10% with minimum 3 acres per dwelling. Meaning you have to have 3 acres before you can even apply for a build permit. There's an 8 acre field that has been for sale down my road for the 5 years I've lived there that can only have 2 houses and they can't get $50k for it.
 
Sounds like a great idea for Duke and it's shareholders, they'll probly spill half that shit up and down the train tracks so they'll be less to bury when it gets to Sanford, Moncure, Brickhaven etc....................Here's the thang...............ash is ash, if it gets wet on a hill (rain) it washes down, in a bowl or clay pit ( big ass hole in the ground ) it turns into a thick soup of shit that will flow like water or pudding and is hard dry out/solidify to later cover or cap it and grow trees on it.................Maybe they should just use it to pump back into the ground to plug up the frucking groundwater leaks or use it to soak up the leaks from the used frucking water detention ponds.
 
mommucked said:
Sounds like a great idea for Duke and it's shareholders
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Then go buy up some $DUK. Oh, but you wouldn't, because it's a utility, it's low beta, and their dividend is mediocre at best. I think what you mean to say is that it's great for Duke's customers, since all operating expenses pass directly through to their monthly bills. Likewise with the costs of the lawsuits that everybody is lining up to file over the Dan mess.
 
Could they no do something useful with it like mix it in with concrete for their next project?
 
jeepinmatt said:
Could they no do something useful with it like mix it in with concrete for their next project?
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You can add it to concrete as a filler, but it holds a lot of moisture. It screws with cure times and initial strength. I know that the last time I used it, it was going to take 28 days to cure vs the fly ash-free mix that was above 5ksi in the 3-day breaks. When interest costs run hundreds of thousands of dollars a month, you can't afford construction delays like that.
 
Exactly, what Shawn said. It's used as a filler but still has to be hauled and processed. Even then there's more being produced than will be used by the concrete companies.
 
Keep in mind coal ash is hotter radioactivly than anything that leaves a nuclear plant.
 
what I don't like is the ash is from willmington & charolette I think each area needs to keep there own waste
 
shawn said:
Then go buy up some $DUK. Oh, but you wouldn't, because it's a utility, it's low beta, and their dividend is mediocre at best. I think what you mean to say is that it's great for Duke's customers, since all operating expenses pass directly through to their monthly bills. Likewise with the costs of the lawsuits that everybody is lining up to file over the Dan mess.
Click to expand...

IMO the power cos. cut corners and took risks to save ( make ) more money and now they want the users to pay to clean up their mistakes?? I hope you're right about fracking being safe, but if you're wrong we'll be paying to to try to clean up a bigger mess than coal ash one day.
 
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