Damage to my property via neighbor

[hunterdan]

Well I get good info. on many subjects here so,
My wife and I are planning a small A frame on our land across the creek from our house. Gonna use it for kids to move to when transitioning to their own place. Also as an Airbnb other times.
It had a crystal clear small creek that flows through it and joins the river. Beautiful with lots of old timber and little scrubs or new growth.
Anyway, I went over there to do some weed eating before summer takes over and the creek is now orange with lots of silt. A mega company Catawba timber partners that owns a few thousand acres across from us did some logging and then graded a new rd to 135 acres. They used no silt fence,rip rap or anything else. They sold that 135 acre piece a few weeks ago.
I had a pipe in the creek/ year round tributary. An 18" pipe used to handle it even in heavy rain. t is now covered on high end and water just spills over it.

So what are my options if anyone knows. I don't think come to our Airbnb and enjoy the orange creek will create much of a draw.
Here's a link to video of neighboring land and link to mine.

0 new items by Daniel Bragg

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0 new items by Daniel Bragg

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[bigtim]

Contact NCDOT dept.of water quality and dept of land quality...they hopefully should help.

 

[YotaOnRocks]

Before contacting a government agency I would make contact with the new land owner and see if they are willing to help rectify the situation.

 

[Loganwayne]

call your country erosion control board, they will take it from there. silt fences aren't always required for logging FYI, but they are suppose to leave waterways alone. but call your erosion control board that would be the fastest way to get something done.

the forest service is required to keep the loggers in check during logging, but if logging is now complete on the track then they probably wont help you.

 

[Loganwayne]

Before contacting a government agency I would make contact with the new land owner and see if they are willing to help rectify the situation.

sounds like all this was done by the previous owner from the way he talks. so new owner wouldn't be responsible.

 

[hunterdan]

I'll be frank... I'm sure someone will have to fix it but I want it cleaned up on my side.
They re constructed the land/drainage... What was a nice spring fed tributary with low to medium flow and crystal clear is a xxxxxxx red torrent. It has collapsed the banks and ruined my land along with ruining the prospect of a planned airbnb.

TAKE a look at the video I just took and added to OP.

 

[Loganwayne]

i mean it did just rain an absolute shit ton in the last 24 hours. looks like minor flooding but looks pretty normal for the amount of rain we've gotten from any small stream.

 

[YotaOnRocks]

sounds like all this was done by the previous owner from the way he talks. so new owner wouldn't be responsible.

I understand that and maybe there is some way to actually hold the person that caused it accountable but if there is a chance that the current land owners will be held liable I think it is only fair and neighborly to give them the chance.

 

[hunterdan]

i mean it did just rain an absolute shit ton in the last 24 hours. looks like minor flooding but looks pretty normal for the amount of rain we've gotten from any small stream.

Did I shit you on a deal or steal yer girlfriend years ago.lol You always seem to be opposing opinion regarding my post.

I live here and know my land and what flows where and how much. Water was never out of the banks before and that's the point. I have no banks now...they are full of fxxxxxx mud.

 

[orange150]

Gonna use it for kids to move to when transitioning to their own place.

I'm not going to comment on the erosion control issue. But I just wanted to say that my parents did this for us and it was a huge help knowing you had a place to land if need be after college. We all still had to pay my parents rent, but it was typically 50% of what going rates were at the time in Raleigh. All four of us ended up staying there over a 14 year span. Now it's sold and a 6,000sf mcmansion is on the property.

Good on you for having the forethought and being able to do that for your children.

 

[simpleman01]

I'd be upset too. As others suggested, contact the landowner and let them know of your concerns. Hopefully they're willing to work with you. Also be aware there are statutes of limitations for some logging-related offenses (if too much time elapses they get a free pass). The current landowner, the previous landowner, the logger, the timber buyer, consultants, and contractors can be held liable. Don't trespass to take pictures or videos - that can be problematic later. If landowner isn't willing/able to remedy the problem some county entities, the NC Forest Service, and NC DWR may have overlapping jurisdiction. Make enough phone calls and it WILL be resolved.

Please keep us updated!

 

[rockcity]

Logging operations are generally exempt from erosion control requirements. However, that only applies to logging operations and supporting activities (temp roads, etc). This does not apply to activities beyond typical logging activities, which very likely includes construction of the permanent road or grading beyond what’s necessary for logging operations. Many “logging” operations try to fly under the radar by doing grading work and permanent road building under their logging exemption; most get away with it because others don’t know the rules and unless someone complains, there really isn’t anyone out there policing it.

Forestry does require BMPs to be implemented to help control the sedimentation runoff. They are expected to do something. The NC Forest Service manages logging operation compliance but NCDEQ also manages these issues and can impose NOVs, etc.

What I would do...

Document the issues and co tact your regional NC Forest Service office AND your regional NCDENR/DEQ compliance office. I believe the Asheville office is your enforcement office for your area. The DEMLR division handles erosion control and stormwater management. I’d start there concurrently with the NC Forestry Service.

 

[awheelterd]

Man, I'd ask logger/landowner to fix the issue before calling DENR. Let him know that if it's not fixed, you will call though. They can cause a hell of a headache for him. Id try to let him fix it before screwing him over.

 

[braxton357]

Did I shit you on a deal or steal her girlfriend years ago.lol You always seem to be opposing opinion regarding my post.

I live here and know my land and what flows where and how much. Water was never out of the banks before and that's the point. I have no banks now...they are full of fxxxxxx mud.

Ha, I was about to say the same thing, he's right. Taking pictures of a creek during a flash flood event shows nothing. And guarantee the new owner is going to do nothing to help you. You can go on the nc forest service site and look up the riparian buffer rules for logging in nc, then call our local ranger at 828-438-6269. He'll be the one to know what you can do.

 

[Ron]

Ha, I was about to say the same thing, he's right. Taking pictures of a creek during a flash flood event shows nothing. And guarantee the new owner is going to do nothing to help you. You can go on the nc forest service site and look up the riparian buffer rules for logging in nc, then call our local ranger at 828-438-6269. He'll be the one to know what you can do.

i mean it did just rain an absolute shit ton in the last 24 hours. looks like minor flooding but looks pretty normal for the amount of rain we've gotten from any small stream.

These two guys have it covered pretty damn thoroughly.

First from a science standpoint - just because a creek is orange now doesn't mean it has been damaged. Some level of localized, temporary sedimentation during a precipitation event is normal and happens.
Removing vegetation from a property does cause more surface runoff and sub erosion. These two items in themselves do not constitute "damage".

Now if permanent sedimentation is happening then that is a different story.

Ultimatly in NC as log as a logger follows BMPs (Best Management Practices) both he and the land owner are exempt from damage claims.
A Registered certified Forester is the authority who can determine if BMPs were followed.


Just on a side personal note. When you call a Forester, do not use language such as "my land is ruined"..land doesnt get ruined and you will be labeled as a high maintenance snow flake if you talk that way.
Secondly, do not mention your BnB plans. The adjacent land owner has no obligation to your business plans.

A Forester has to love the land. Its a difficult job dealing with lots of shitty people for minuscule pay. If you want to appeal to a forester you want to talk about ecology damage, and wildlife impact. They dont care about money. (usually)

What your video shows is what is defined legally as a flash flood, or localized flood event. It doesnt mater how it used to be. Legally that is. As long as its fine during normal circumstances they are allowed to make changes to their land that may have deletrious impact to your property value. They are not allowed to be negligent to the environment.

In other words cutting down their trees and ruining your view or allowing road noise to enter you property isnt a crime. But damaging the environment may be.

Im just giving you pointers for how to approach the situation....

By the way...unknowingly you are currently making the TU argument against Tellico...

 

[hunterdan]

Ha, I was about to say the same thing, he's right. Taking pictures of a creek during a flash flood event shows nothing. And guarantee the new owner is going to do nothing to help you. You can go on the nc forest service site and look up the riparian buffer rules for logging in nc, then call our local ranger at 828-438-6269. He'll be the one to know what you can do.

Sure, I see what both of you are saying. Try and see what I'm saying.
I've lived here for 3 years and we have had a few of those hundred year floods. Every time we have one of those I go and check the property at certain spots. Partly because I'm always on my trails and partly to see what debris has been flushed from jams. The creek in question has never been an issue. Yeah it rages through there but is normal color and sediment level. Pipe always stayed clear and creek was back to clear and self cleaning after a few days. Now because they reconfigured the land and drainage I have about 4 times the water. I also have a permanently orange stained creek with no banks anymore on a large portion due to silt/clay.

 

[hunterdan]

Another thing I noticed. There is a ditch on both sides of the highway that runs down hill along my land and theirs. Both flowed down to the larger smokey creek. They flowed like that for a long distance going through pipe under each landowners driveway. My neighbor didn't put a pipe in that ditch to allow runoff to reach Smokey creek. They just filled the ditch and diverted runoff 90 degrees down their driveway ditch to a road pipe down there. So now all that water is not going to SC...it's going under the highway....joining the spring water and running through my land then into SC.

 

[rockcity]

Sure, I see what both of you are saying. Try and see what I'm saying.
I've lived here for 3 years and we have had a few of those hundred year floods. Every time we have one of those I go and check the property at certain spots. Partly because I'm always on my trails and partly to see what debris has been flushed from jams. The creek in question has never been an issue. Yeah it rages through there but is normal color and sediment level. Pipe always stayed clear and creek was back to clear and self cleaning after a few days. Now because they reconfigured the land and drainage I have about 4 times the water. I also have a permanently orange stained creek with no banks anymore on a large portion due to silt/clay.

It is very difficult to increase the volume of water by 4 times without significant grading well beyond logging or building a road, especially in your area. Turbidity during a storm event will increase quite a bit. Typical turbidity thresholds hover around 50ntu. It doesn’t take much to get there, but being turbid and having sediment leave the site are different. Your stream being orange versus sediment laden are different. Both are not ideal, but just because it’s orange doesn’t necessarily mean the owner/logger is doing anything wrong. BMPs cannot prevent the water from being orange, they are there to manage most sediment. It’s absurd to think or expect the water to be clear during a storm. It’s just not practical without treatment beyond checks, plunge pools, sediment traps, catch basins, wattles, etc. PAMs help but most won’t use them unless discharging into a HQW or reservoir.

 

[rockcity]

Another thing I noticed. There is a ditch on both sides of the highway that runs down hill along my land and theirs. Both flowed down to the larger smokey creek. They flowed like that for a long distance going through pipe under each landowners driveway. My neighbor didn't put a pipe in that ditch to allow runoff to reach Smokey creek. They just filled the ditch and diverted runoff 90 degrees down their driveway ditch to a road pipe down there. So now all that water is not going to SC...it's going under the highway....joining the spring water and running through my land then into SC.

If you have any saving grace, this may be it. NCDOT has very distinct rules about not changing drainage from the road ROW and has specifications and permit requirements when constructing a driveway that ties into a state road. In this instance, if the landowner doesn’t take action to correct, a call to the regional DOT engineer would remediate this.

 

[hunterdan]

I know that every run off in burke county is orange or at least brown orange during a storm. It isn't orange water I'm mad about its the sediment and the fact that about1/2-3/4 mile of everyone's runoff is coming through my land. Here are some pics of the no road culvert situation on top of zero silt stops on the newly graded road and land.
I'll post a few pics shortly.

 

[rockcity]

^^^ yeah, DOT engineer would have a field day with that. There must be a culvert pipe installed to maintain drainage. In this case, watershed is changed and introduces additional water to a conveyance not intended or used for that much water.
I’m going through this with one of my properties at the moment; constructing a drive attached to the state road and it requires a permit and built to state specs and even inspection by the DOT engineer. I have to grade the ROW but only at the direction of the engineer to improve the current drainage, can’t change direction of flow.

 

[rodney eppes]

Looks like there are many good ideas & suggestions here. Sounds like a lot of Departments to talk to, but maybe start with the Landowner. Just as Rockcity said, I had a neighbor once, with a low back yard, but it drained. A real-estate company moved a house in beside him on a vacant lot they bought. They changed the ditch, between the 2 lots, so it would be off their lot. That put all the water on my neighbor, flooding his backyard. He called the City [was in Charlotte] & some inspector came out. Told that company they could Not divert the common drainage, & Directed them to Fix it, or the City Storm water would fix it & send them the Bill. It got fixed! Good luck!

 

[shawn]

Just on a side personal note. When you call a Forester, do not use language such as "my land is ruined"..land doesnt get ruined and you will be labeled as a high maintenance snow flake if you talk that way.
Secondly, do not mention your BnB plans. The adjacent land owner has no obligation to your business plans.

This. Strict focus on the defect or deviation and how it's going to be rectified.

 

[hunterdan]

Just so ya know I'm far from a snowflake. What I'm pissed about and what I'll tell those I contact are two different things.
I know what matters these days...bugs over babies.
Thanks though for the good advice.

 

[TARider]

Please follow up on here as it progresses. Curious to see how it turns out.