Dishwasher electrical

Macdaddy4738

Macdaddy4738

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Just purchased a new one. I'm assuming my old is hardwired in, no plug. I haven't taken it out yet to investigate, but based on how everything else has been done, it's my assumption.

The dishwasher (Bosch 800) is a plug in type, but they have a specific junction box adapter to convert it to hardwire, which I purchased. Problem is, I'm not entirely sure how to make the box accessible. The dishwasher sits in a hole with the fridge on the right and drawers on the left. The nearest accessible cabinet is beyond the drawers. The drain and water lines run behind the drawers. I'm not entirely sure how much cable I'll have to work with if I want to place the junction box in that cabinet, I suspect the remaining wire is too short to make it all that way. How awful would it be to have this box behind the dishwasher? I know it's not ideal but I don't know what else I can do. The fridge outlet is easily accessible, but I don't really want the dishwasher and fridge on the same circuit.

Alternatively, I've thought about just converting it to a plug and doing away with the junction box entirely, IF I have enough wire to work with. Shouldn't be too hard really, just swap the box out for a receptacle. I assume dishwashers need to be on a GFCI now? I know for sure it's not a GFCI breaker, so I assume right now it's not on anything like that. Do dishwashers need to be on their own dedicated circuit? I've long wanted a garbage disposal but haven't had a receptacle for one. This might be time to do it, but I would guess running the dishwasher and disposal at the same time will trip it every single time right? If I have enough wire to run behind the drawers to the cabinet, does the run need to be in anything to protect the wire from contact with the moving drawers? I believe the wire serving the dishwasher is probably standard Romex. That's not supposed to be run in conduit right? What's the solution here? Any sort of transition will probably require a junction box which again, I can't figure out where to place it that it remains accessible.

I'm probably overthinking what should be a simple swap, but if I can correct stupid mistakes while I have things taken apart, might as well go ahead and do it.
 
My bet is you are overthinking this before knowing what you're working with.
Pull the old one out first and see what you have. Its hard to imagine you can't replace the new one with a setup identical to the old one.
 
RatLabGuy said:
My bet is you are overthinking this before knowing what you're working with.
Pull the old one out first and see what you have. Its hard to imagine you can't replace the new one with a setup identical to the old one.
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Well, wish that were the case.

The existing wiring comes up from underneath the current unit. Straight up from the floor.

Problematic because the Bosch unit from what I've seen is an entirely closed unit on the bottom. I'm not sure how to move this wire from the bottom to the rear.

Does appear to be standard Romex. White = 14g correct? It's on a 20amp breaker which is super cool.
 
Hell, it’s under the DW cut the floor out up into the wall cavity and place a box in the wall. Not sure about your county but around here it requires a light switch to turn power on and off to the DW.

NOTE: I’ve never seen the having a switched power for a DW anywhere else in all of my travels around the country until I got to NC.
 
skyhighZJ said:
Hell, it’s under the DW cut the floor out up into the wall cavity and place a box in the wall. Not sure about your county but around here it requires a light switch to turn power on and off to the DW.

NOTE: I’ve never seen the having a switched power for a DW anywhere else in all of my travels around the country until I got to NC.
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Not a bad idea, that could work.

The kitchen is powered off a subpanel next to the fridge. From what I can tell, the wire actually coming off the breaker is not the one going to the dishwasher. I suspect there's a junction box in the crawl space somewhere.

Truthfully I may just have an electrician come check it out and get suggestions. If I'm messing around with electrical, I should just go ahead and get the stuff done for a future disposal.
 
Just installed an 800 a couple months ago. My wiring came up through the floor as well. Luckily you can raise the DW up with the feet enough to clear romex, I mounted the box on the wall behind the DW, cord is plenty long enough to do that. It's not rocket science, you can handle it.
 
Tacoma747 said:
Just installed an 800 a couple months ago. My wiring came up through the floor as well. Luckily you can raise the DW up with the feet enough to clear romex, I mounted the box on the wall behind the DW, cord is plenty long enough to do that. It's not rocket science, you can handle it.
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Oh good to to know! I wasn't sure if there was enough space to clear it.

When you say box, do you mean the Bosch junction box? Are you comfortable having it inaccessible without moving the unit? This is basically the only way I can do it without a lot of extra work.

The wire coming up from the floor is pretty accessible in the crawl space. I'm considering just installing a longer run, moving it back against the wall, and running it through the cabinets to a spot where I can install a new outlet. The dishwasher isn't on a GFCI breaker. My thought was to make it a switched outlet so the DW has a much more accessible disconnect.

In this case, can I run the NM through conduit since it'll be behind drawers just to protect it?
 
Macdaddy4738 said:
Oh good to to know! I wasn't sure if there was enough space to clear it.

When you say box, do you mean the Bosch junction box? Are you comfortable having it inaccessible without moving the unit? This is basically the only way I can do it without a lot of extra work.

The wire coming up from the floor is pretty accessible in the crawl space. I'm considering just installing a longer run, moving it back against the wall, and running it through the cabinets to a spot where I can install a new outlet. The dishwasher isn't on a GFCI breaker. My thought was to make it a switched outlet so the DW has a much more accessible disconnect.

In this case, can I run the NM through conduit since it'll be behind drawers just to protect it?
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I see no need to have access to the box (yes the Bosch junction box), once it's hooked up, there isn't a need to ever disconnect it unless you have to take it out (hopefully it's more reliable than my KitchenAid was). My dishwasher is on a switch, not that it really matters. My romex coming out of the floor was long enough (barely) to mount the box on the back wall, I did have to position the box in just the right spot to avoid interference with the dishwasher.
 
Tacoma747 said:
I see no need to have access to the box (yes the Bosch junction box), once it's hooked up, there isn't a need to ever disconnect it unless you have to take it out (hopefully it's more reliable than my KitchenAid was). My dishwasher is on a switch, not that it really matters. My romex coming out of the floor was long enough (barely) to mount the box on the back wall, I did have to position the box in just the right spot to avoid interference with the dishwasher.
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Hm, interesting. I was treating the Bosch junction box as any other, basically that it must remain accessible. I've read some reviews that it's a bit sketchy too.

I might just replace the entire run in the crawlspace with BX, up through the floor at the back of the DW cabinet, through to the nearest accessible cabinet, and install an outlet and disconnect there. Seems like the cleanest option, although not the easiest.
 
Macdaddy4738 said:
Hm, interesting. I was treating the Bosch junction box as any other, basically that it must remain accessible. I've read some reviews that it's a bit sketchy too.

I might just replace the entire run in the crawlspace with BX, up through the floor at the back of the DW cabinet, through to the nearest accessible cabinet, and install an outlet and disconnect there. Seems like the cleanest option, although not the easiest.
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WHY does the junction box need to be accessible? Not sure I understand the dilemma, you can't unplug your refrigerator without moving it, can't unplug your stove without moving it, why do you need to be able to disconnect your dishwasher without removing it?
 
Why would you even need a seperate box? Does the Bosch unit not have a junction box on its back?
Usually you'd just take the existing wire, run it under the unit and connect to the back or wherever the junction is. The only problem is this requires extra slack in teh wire that may not exist. The DW should have feet that make its covered bottom higher that the thocknes of 14ga Romex.
 
Tacoma747 said:
WHY does the junction box need to be accessible? Not sure I understand the dilemma, you can't unplug your refrigerator without moving it, can't unplug your stove without moving it, why do you need to be able to disconnect your dishwasher without removing it?
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This. I have never seen a DW with an accessible box.
Maybe the distinctions is in how you define "accessible"... can get to it by sliding out an appliance? To me, covered by drywall so you need to cut out things = inaccessible.
 
Tacoma747 said:
WHY does the junction box need to be accessible? Not sure I understand the dilemma, you can't unplug your refrigerator without moving it, can't unplug your stove without moving it, why do you need to be able to disconnect your dishwasher without removing it?
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I'm just considering it the same as any other junction box for standard home wiring. It's accomplishing the same thing.

RatLabGuy said:
Why would you even need a seperate box? Does the Bosch unit not have a junction box on its back?
Usually you'd just take the existing wire, run it under the unit and connect to the back or wherever the junction is. The only problem is this requires extra slack in teh wire that may not exist. The DW should have feet that make its covered bottom higher that the thocknes of 14ga Romex.
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Bosch has its own proprietary plug. The unit is designed from the factory to be plugged into an outlet, not hardwired in.

In order to adapt it to be hardwired, you need a Bosch junction box kit, essentially connecting the hardwire from the house into a box which outputs through the same proprietary plug. I'm just considering this the same as any other normal junction box, that it's supposed to remain accessible. I suppose moving the DW still keeps it "accessible" regardless.
 
Macdaddy4738 said:
I'm just considering it the same as any other junction box for standard home wiring. It's accomplishing the same thing.



Bosch has its own proprietary plug. The unit is designed from the factory to be plugged into an outlet, not hardwired in.

In order to adapt it to be hardwired, you need a Bosch junction box kit, essentially connecting the hardwire from the house into a box which outputs through the same proprietary plug. I'm just considering this the same as any other normal junction box, that it's supposed to remain accessible. I suppose moving the DW still keeps it "accessible" regardless.
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Can you not remove the pigtail plug from the DW and plug in the romex where its plug used to originate from?
 
RatLabGuy said:
Can you not remove the pigtail plug from the DW and plug in the romex where its plug used to originate from?
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The DW has it's own plug, similar to what you would see on a power supply or TV (but different). You could use the factory cord and cut the 120v outlet plug off it and wire that to a junction box of your own. When I bought mine, I 'spent' an extra $70 on stuff to get free shipping (would have been $100 shipping), the junction box kit was one of those things. If you have a 120v outlet behind the dishwasher, you could just plug it up without a junction box.
 
@Macdaddy4738 I have yet to figure out why you think the box needs to be accessible. My dishwasher, TV, stove, fridge, chest freezer, microwave, washer, dryer, and probably other things ALL have to be physically moved to access the plugs. I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be....
 
Tacoma747 said:
The DW has it's own plug, similar to what you would see on a power supply or TV (but different). You could use the factory cord and cut the 120v outlet plug off it and wire that to a junction box of your own. When I bought mine, I 'spent' an extra $70 on stuff to get free shipping (would have been $100 shipping), the junction box kit was one of those things. If you have a 120v outlet behind the dishwasher, you could just plug it up without a junction box.
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What is behind that proprietary plug? Thats just a panel. Surely you can remove it and connect your romex in.
It seems crazy there would be no way to hardwire the DW into place, as that is the norm in many cases.
 
RatLabGuy said:
What is behind that proprietary plug? Thats just a panel. Surely you can remove it and connect your romex in.
It seems crazy there would be no way to hardwire the DW into place, as that is the norm in many cases.
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You are over thinking it too. It would be like taking a power supply apart to get rid of the cord that goes from the wall to the power supply. My kitchenaid was hardwired, the Bosch cord is nice. I still have the 120v cord, if I ever needed to remove the DW for repair, you could take it outside and plug it into an extension cord without doing anything more than unplugging it and plugging in the 'regular' cord. Doing what you are referring to would be way more work, and likely void the warranty.
 
Tacoma747 said:
@Macdaddy4738 I have yet to figure out why you think the box needs to be accessible. My dishwasher, TV, stove, fridge, chest freezer, microwave, washer, dryer, and probably other things ALL have to be physically moved to access the plugs. I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be....
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Primarily stuff like this...




www.automaticwasher.org

Bosch 800 junction box failure

www.automaticwasher.org

The Bosch junction box has a tendency to catch fire and fail.

Technically a junction box can be behind removable appliances like a DW from what I gather as far as the NEC goes, but with the Bosch one being questionable, I'm hesitant to put it somewhere I can't access quickly.

That said, there's a pretty substantial gap between the right side of the DW and the end of the cabinet (like 4 inches or so), so it would be fairly easy to place the Bosch jbox there and be done with it. Maybe a 5 minute install once the old DW is out.
 
awheelterd said:
Looks like the hot wire terminal wasn't tightened all the way.
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Also looks like an idiot installed it because the cut the romex insulation back WAY too far.

@Macdaddy4738 I STILL don't know why you need access to it. If you are concerned about the Bosch junction box, the solution is simple---use a metal junction box with wire nuts. Maybe it would be a great idea, but who goes around their house from junction box to junction box checking for burnt wires on a regular basis? Nobody, that's who.
 
Tacoma747 said:
Also looks like an idiot installed it because the cut the romex insulation back WAY too far.

@Macdaddy4738 I STILL don't know why you need access to it. If you are concerned about the Bosch junction box, the solution is simple---use a metal junction box with wire nuts. Maybe it would be a great idea, but who goes around their house from junction box to junction box checking for burnt wires on a regular basis? Nobody, that's who.
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The NEC says it must be accessible. Specifically 314.29. However the definition is key here:

1718028991756.png



However that doesnt say you cant have an appliance in the way. As long as you can move the dishwasher out without damaging the structure that is (arguably) accessible.

Also there must be a disconnecting means. if it is a plug-in cord that can be unplugged without the use of tools that is a disconnecting means. If not, that is where you see the light switch install to serve as the disconnect.
 
Just decided to go full send with it.

Moved the electrical connection to another cabinet. Installed a shutoff switch and outlet. Fixed a bunch of shitty work in the crawl space. Discovered an outlet for the sump pump I didn't know existed (have had it running on an extension cord for 10 years). Promptly knocked that box out because it was all shitty and plan to replace it correctly.

Not nearly as difficult as I thought. Probably going to run a new line for a garbage disposal while I'm under there too.
 
awheelterd said:
You on septic or .gov sewer?
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Sewer. When I moved in the sink and most of the gray water was just going outside. Somewhere. Fixed that within the first week.

When I was messing with the dishwasher/sump pump box, I discovered that whoever installed the stuff grounded it by running the grounds out of the box and using a grounding clamp on the copper water line. I guess this was an old school fix?

The main line coming from the panel is just 2 wire, no ground. What would be the best way to properly ground this circuit out? The dishwasher and sump pump will both have GFCI protection. I've considered running an entirely new line from the subpanel to the J box. I suspect I'll be able it done, it's all accessible, but I'll be fishing wire through a formerly exterior wall so I assume there will be insulation to contend with. I'm also not sure it's worth the effort.
 
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