Flipped axles for rear engine tech.

[Mac5005]

Got a project coming up that is rear engine.

Plan is to flip and offset the 14b for rear engine.

The axle needs to be offset as far as possible to driver side to clear the engine. This will somewhat convert it to high pinion.

I’m not concerned about oiling as this will be for low speed Offroad use only. No highway use.

Thinking I may have to put a seal in the long side tube to keep the oil from just filling up pass side tube when off-camber and articulating.

Just going to do a raised fill plug on cover.

Current plan is to have branik shorten and respline two stock shafts for the short side because it’s cheaper.

As far as the long side, what mfrs are out there for a custom Long side shaft?

What limits are there for shaft length? Is it necessary to convert to double splined shaft or does anyone make longer than stock shafts with a flange. Double splined would require a different spline count and pressure angle that inner splines.

Hoping to keep with 14bolt diff/carrier options, but backup plan is welding d60/70 side gears into an open 14b diff and running double splined 35 spline stuff.

Just the beginning of this, and going to have to work thru all the issues before completion.

Searched pirate and very little tech and pictures remain, so hoped to have this thread for info/tech and somewhere to put all the info as I work through it.

Going to do this without retubing if all possible.

Going to see if I can cut the spindles out of the oem tubes and shorten the one side, and then have to figure out a splice/overlap with tube for the long side. If that seems to be an issue, I will cut and shorten/lengthen the tubes using an inner tube to make the splice. It will get a full truss that ties into the pinion and cover.

The plan for the front is to grind the welds off the inner C’s on the KP dana 61, flip it also, and reweld the c’s back on, that will also allow me to set the caster and pinion angle.

Yes I know about driving on the wrong side and oiling concerns....going to avoid that all together for now.

I plan to run off the shelf dodge/Chevy 4340 ecgs front shafts, unless i decide to narrow the long side inner just to keep overall width down.

I have $200 in the d61/14b pair, so I’m not too deep into it and can afford to hack on them without worry.

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

I seen something on the Facebook where the guy TIG welded some sort of seal to the 14 bolt adjusters, I wanna say it was the busted knuckle guy. I’ll see if I can dig something up. Other. Then that I’ve got nothing but open ears and a spare 14 bolt/d60 housings and enough spare parts to build a complete 60 almost. I’ve been thinking of building a front for shits and giggles for a little bit now. And I’d love to build a buggy one day after I finish my jeep and K5.


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[paradisePWoffrd]

If you want to do something other than stock 14b spline, I would look at 40spline.com. but if your on the cheap, used welded spiders should work.

I know that RCV can do custom length 14b, but I believe they are all double spline. 40spline does them too, not sure on length.
Ruff Stuff carries flanged shafts up to 42" it looks like.

As far as oiling, the tube will not overfill anymore than a centered diff. The raised fill level will likely have the tubes mostly full anyways, unless you get seals.

Might be easier/cheaper to find a SD60, build a steering 14b for the rear and lockout the steering portion. Then it'd be off the shelf shafts.

 

[rockcity]

Couldn't you go with something like an axle seal like this:

 

[Mac5005]

I seen something on the Facebook where the guy TIG welded some sort of seal to the 14 bolt adjusters, I wanna say it was the busted knuckle guy. I’ll see if I can dig something up. Other. Then that I’ve got nothing but open ears and a spare 14 bolt/d60 housings and enough spare parts to build a complete 60 almost. I’ve been thinking of building a front for shits and giggles for a little bit now. And I’d love to build a buggy one day after I finish my jeep and K5.


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I saw a pic of a machined ring to hold a seal beside the side adjuster.

I may try something like that, or find a seals it

Branik.

Yukon

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

Would it be easier to take one of those Yukon or who ever cut to length 14 bolt shafts. Machine a seal surface then cut off the “flanged” and have that splined?


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[Mac5005]

If you want to do something other than stock 14b spline, I would look at 40spline.com. but if your on the cheap, used welded spiders should work.

I know that RCV can do custom length 14b, but I believe they are all double spline. 40spline does them too, not sure on length.
Ruff Stuff carries flanged shafts up to 42" it looks like.

As far as oiling, the tube will not overfill anymore than a centered diff. The raised fill level will likely have the tubes mostly full anyways, unless you get seals.

Might be easier/cheaper to find a SD60, build a steering 14b for the rear and lockout the steering portion. Then it'd be off the shelf shafts.

Really trying to avoid going this route but I know that option is there. I think it introduces more problems than it solves.

When people do steering 14b, What off the shelf inner shafts fit the 14b side gears? Most of the ones that people talk about are using $$$$$ rcv stuff and big bells, and neither of those fit this project lol.

Trying to avoid the 40 spline 14b stuff. It’s just stupid money that I don’t really feel is completely necessary having beat on stock 14b and having no issues.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

Dutchman makes double spline shafts up 45" long but they not sure if they will/can spline one end 30 spl, Link Here. The longest flange shaft they carry 38.5" or 40" depending upon material, Link Here.

As far as seals you have Cranes option Link Here or Ruffstuff makes these, Link Here, but I don't know if they'll fit, can't remember the tube size.

 

[NCJeeplover]

The revolution seals are the only way go to with a 14 bolt.

I know arb makes a 35 spline 14 bolt locker

ARB Air Locker GM 14 Bolt 10.5inch FF 35 Spline 4.10 & Down (RD235)

I also know that randy's will make a grizzly locker with 35 spline side gears. Both of these could open you up to more off the self axle options.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

Really trying to avoid going this route but I know that option is there. I think it introduces more problems than it solves.

When people do steering 14b, What off the shelf inner shafts fit the 14b side gears? Most of the ones that people talk about are using $$$$$ rcv stuff and big bells, and neither of those fit this project lol.

Trying to avoid the 40 spline 14b stuff. It’s just stupid money that I don’t really feel is completely necessary having beat on stock 14b and having no issues.

If I was building a cheap steering axle, I would weld in 35 spline side gears and cannibalize an 05+ sd60 using shafts, knuckles, outers. If the steering stays locked out, you could likely get away with stock shafts for a long time. I think your going to want to use inner seals no matter which way you go.

For the price of going double spline shafts in the rear, you could build a steering 14b like above. Plus you would retain off the shelf shafts vs custom.

Many folks use all aftermarket parts when going steering 14b. But there are others that have done 35spline to reuse shafts they currently have. Xtreme4x4 built a junkyard steering axle using this combo iirc.

As for 40 spline, I was referring to the company not actually going 40spline shafts. 40spline.com makes 30 & 35spl stuff too. But I would try welding something up first, personally, because of cost.

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

Super duty unit bearings and weld on bearing cups with a dual splined axle shaft with drive flanges? You’d have to redrill the unit bearings and rotors then come up with a caliper bracket.

It would be expensive as hell this way though. Used 05-up unit bearings/ rotors, the bearing cups are $540 a pair, then drive flanges are $250 then whatever the best price you can find for shafts. Then it’s locker ($$) or welded side gears for the 35 spline at the diff. Then some seals on the adjusters. Damn it now I’m considering doing this for the rear of my jeep because my front 60 is 5” wider than that 14 bolt I’ve got in the garage. I hate this forum, haha.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

What size motor are you using ?
Single seat ?
What type of buggy ?
You mentioned rear engine
I'm thinking 9" ford or keep those 9.5" Toyota.
and then your wide open to do just about anything, but that just me......

 

[Mac5005]

What size motor are you using ?
Single seat ?
What type of buggy ?
You mentioned rear engine
I'm thinking 9" ford or keep those 9.5" Toyota.
and then your wide open to do just about anything, but that just me......

Two seats, Lexus 1uz/aw4/d300.

Going to stick with at least wonton axles to run at least 39” Tires. I looked at the Toyota 9.5 and ford 9” stuff buts it’s just ridiculously expensive compared to wontons.

Even if I have to buy custom shafts for the non steer rear it’s Still cheaper than off the shelf steering 4340 axles.

Waiting to hear back from branik about the options/price.


Everything else we have is all 8 lug so spares and swapping tires wheels is way easier to stay 8x6.5.

No need to do unit bearings over my current 14b spindles and hubs....just not necessary.

I don’t think the oil seal is even going to be a real issue with the raised fill plug.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

ah i see

 

[GONOVRIT]

I’ve not been impressed with the Dutchman axles. A Colorado friend of mine is regularly twisting the hell out of the splines in his light 4.0 Jeep on krawlers and narrowed axles.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

Super duty unit bearings and weld on bearing cups with a dual splined axle shaft with drive flanges? You’d have to redrill the unit bearings and rotors then come up with a caliper bracket.

It would be expensive as hell this way though. Used 05-up unit bearings/ rotors, the bearing cups are $540 a pair, then drive flanges are $250 then whatever the best price you can find for shafts. Then it’s locker ($$) or welded side gears for the 35 spline at the diff. Then some seals on the adjusters. Damn it now I’m considering doing this for the rear of my jeep because my front 60 is 5” wider than that 14 bolt I’ve got in the garage. I hate this forum, haha.

I wish they had this for the 99-04 Unit Bearing, thought about doing this to narrow a 70 rear.

I’ve not been impressed with the Dutchman axles. A Colorado friend of mine is regularly twisting the hell out of the splines in his light 4.0 Jeep on krawlers and narrowed axles.

Good to know

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

I wish they had this for the 99-04 Unit Bearing, thought about doing this to narrow a 70 rear.

I tried searching to see if I could find something like it. Trail gear has something like it with a little bit of s caliper bracket on it but it doesn’t specify what unit bearings they run. Spidertrax I wanna say use to make something like that. I’ll have to go back through all my saved pages to see if I can find them. I feel like a lot of people have moved in from the 99-04 bearings and now want to utilize the 05-Up ones.

 

[mcutler]

I tried searching to see if I could find something like it. Trail gear has something like it with a little bit of s caliper bracket on it but it doesn’t specify what unit bearings they run. Spidertrax I wanna say use to make something like that. I’ll have to go back through all my saved pages to see if I can find them. I feel like a lot of people have moved in from the 99-04 bearings and now want to utilize the 05-Up ones.

My spidertrax are 99-4, latest I'm not sure about. Trail gear is 99-4. Trail gear rear axle kit is hard too beat, for money.

In the future, I will never not run unit bearing knuckles and cups on rears. Even if I built a 14 bolt, I'll put cups and units on it. I'm done with greasy hub work...i can tear down and put back my front axle in about 20 minutes without touching the bearing grease bucket... That's even better on a trail repair... just ask @Paul why spindle bearings suck when its 12 degrees...

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[Mac5005]

Branik says they can shorten and respline the short side for $75 ea.

Also says the limit to flanged shaft is 40” but can do any length double splined.

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

My spidertrax are 99-4, latest I'm not sure about. Trail gear is 99-4. Trail gear rear axle kit is hard too beat, for money.

In the future, I will never not run unit bearing knuckles and cups on rears. Even if I built a 14 bolt, I'll put cups and units on it. I'm done with greasy hub work...i can tear down and put back my front axle in about 20 minutes without touching the bearing grease bucket... That's even better on a trail repair... just ask @Paul why spindle bearings suck when its 12 degrees...

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It’s always the old school guys that hate on unit bearings, I love them. Even if they are “weak” on my JKs stock 44 up front.

 

[Mac5005]

It’s always the old school guys that hate on unit bearings, I love them. Even if they are “weak” on my JKs stock 44 up front.

I’m not hating on unit bearings, it’s just not worth it in my opinion.

It’s $250 for spidertrax cups, others are $550.

Then another $4-500 for unit bearings.

Not that big of a deal to redrill pattern and bore the hub, but still an extra step.

Then it’s figuring out a Brake setup. Personally Not going with $$$ spidertrax stuff lol. Nothing against it, but I can’t go to the local part store and replace the caliper and rotor for $40-$50.

The extra cost just isn’t worth it to me, with the frequency I typically have to go into the wheel bearings on the rear. When I already have rotors and calipers that fit the hub. It’s just a lot of unnecessary cost for gaining convenience.

I’d consider it sooner on the front with the Reid kp to unit bearing knuckles, but again it’s not worth that additional cost at this point lol.

 

[iwaxmyjimmy]

I’m not hating on unit bearings, it’s just not worth it in my opinion.

It’s $250 for spidertrax cups, others are $550.

Then another $4-500 for unit bearings.

Not that big of a deal to redrill pattern and bore the hub, but still an extra step.

Then it’s figuring out a Brake setup. Personally Not going with $$$ spidertrax stuff lol. Nothing against it, but I can’t go to the local part store and replace the caliper and rotor for $40-$50.

The extra cost just isn’t worth it to me, with the frequency I typically have to go into the wheel bearings on the rear. When I already have rotors and calipers that fit the hub. It’s just a lot of unnecessary cost for gaining convenience.

I’d consider it sooner on the front with the Reid kp to unit bearing knuckles, but again it’s not worth that additional cost at this point lol.

I wasn’t referring to you, I definitely get you’re trying to do this as cheap as you can. Switching to a different bearing setup our back or dual spline shafts is going to be very costly.

If you do have to do a dual splined shaft to get the diff moved over enough. Would it be easier/cheaper in your case to use a front 60 hub and spindle? So you can just run a drive flange?

Another thought I had. Use a DRW hub in one side and a SRW on the other to “offset” it more on the 14 bolt. I don’t see it working out that great though, lol.

 

[Mac5005]

I wasn’t referring to you, I definitely get you’re trying to do this as cheap as you can. Switching to a different bearing setup our back or dual spline shafts is going to be very costly.

If you do have to do a dual splined shaft to get the diff moved over enough. Would it be easier/cheaper in your case to use a front 60 hub and spindle? So you can just run a drive flange?

Another thought I had. Use a DRW hub in one side and a SRW on the other to “offset” it more on the 14 bolt. I don’t see it working out that great though, lol.

No worries.

Looks like 14b drive flanges are $250.
$245 for the double splined Long side shaft.

$150 to get both oem axles shortened/resplined.

So $750ish all together for rear shafts. Then if we break the short side oem shafts, can just order a short double splined and we will already have the drive flange for $300.

Still less than using a front in the rear, bc of axle price, 4340 shafts, joints, and drive flanges. And would have to flip a driver side hp over to get it back on driver side rear, then making it low pinion. $1500-2000.

 

[Mac5005]

Hit a minor hiccup tonight. Will need two custom rear shafts.

The od of the oem shaft is smaller than the major diameter of the splines meaning

The oem 14 bolt shafts can’t be shortened and reused. May be possible to respline them dana 60 35 spline instead. I’ll send branik a message.

I found where it’s not to difficult to turn down d60/d70 35spl Detroit side gears to use in a 14 Detroit. Really not too much work on a lathe to get that to work.

Ecgs also has rear drive flanges that are 35 spline that should work. The pattern appears to be 8 x 3.56” and is listed on their site for d60/70/80 external drive flanges.

 

[Mac5005]

Some quick measurements.

If I narrow the wms down from 67 minus 3.5” to 63.5” then I can use a stock or replacement 42” shaft for the long side. Somewhat easy.

Now back to the short side. I need to find a 23.5” Long shaft. Fingers crossed as it’s short, branik or moser can do a flanged shaft that length with stock 14b splines.

Can’t shorten and respline the stockers as the shaft dia is smaller that the spline major diameter.

Originally I was looking at offsetting the diff 14” still with 67” wms.

If I narrow to use off the shelf 42” Long side shaft, then I would shorten the one side 14”, and lengthen the other 10.5”.

From the factory The shafts arent centered in the housing exactly, but when flipping the diff for rear engine, helps with the offset using off the shelf axles. Also noted that the 14b pinion location when flipped moves up and farther offset, helping with engine clearance.