Ford Quality on Par with Toyota

Blkvoodoo

Blkvoodoo

professionally useless
Moderator
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Location
Archer Lodge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1FaJ9P2vXo

Has Fords quailty actually gotten better ? OR Has Toyotas Quality gotten worse ?

I have owned Toyotas for the last 20 years, the most recent a 2007, and I do not think the quality is as good now as it was 10-15 years ago.

Don't get me wrong, it is still a fine reliable vehicle, but there seems to be some distinct "Americanization" of the vehicle.

Over all things have cheapened, the feel isn't near as solid as it used to be. this current ride is fully computer driven, and compared to some of the GM vehicles I have driven, the throttle response isn't near as crisp, ( fly by wire throttle control ) The 5spd auto trans isn't very confience inspiring ( my 1997 Honda Accord shifts better and holds over drive MUCH better, it also gets better mileage than this 2007 Camry)

I've never been a Ford fan, too many let downs from my dads rides when I was a kid ( one car would try to start itself when it rained ) and my experiance working on them as a professional hasn't been very confidence inspiring either.

Having worked in a Chevy dealership for a few years, I have been rather amused at some of GM's marketing decisions and warranty /recall administrations ( as a customer and a technician)

Curiously, I work for Toyota Industrial Equipment now, and am seeing some of the same "cheapening" of the product here as well.
 
welcome to the 21st century. soon everything is going to be disposable, single use bullshit.
 
I did see the commercial that Ford put out that said they were even with Toyota with quality...

I'm a Ford guy, but I don't believe that for a minute. the only Ford I'd buy right now is any of the 4x4 7.3 PSDs, thats it. Toyota, I'd buy any of the vehicles...


As said before, everything nowadays is being made disposable, single use, etc. Problem is, they make it out of materials that last forever (plastic)...
 
Curiously, I work for Toyota Industrial Equipment now, and am seeing some of the same "cheapening" of the product here as well.[/QUOTE]

well how did you like their big 8k lb truck with the 4.3 in it,my wife works for toyota forklift and i was over one day looking at it,had toyota on the side ,chevy 4.3 under the hood and the wiring harness connectors were stamped with saab,do you work for southeastern
 
I know that Toyota has had their share of tranny issues the last few years and this has really brought down their quality rating. It does make sense though. Components are being made everywhere and the cheapest bidder always wins on these components. Quality and price never seem to be on the same page.

With the quality of the Korean auto manf.'s and lower cost of their vehicles, things are changing for everyone.
 
tusk762 said:
Curiously, I work for Toyota Industrial Equipment now, and am seeing some of the same "cheapening" of the product here as well.
Click to expand...
well how did you like their big 8k lb truck with the 4.3 in it,my wife works for toyota forklift and i was over one day looking at it,had toyota on the side ,chevy 4.3 under the hood and the wiring harness connectors were stamped with saab
Click to expand...
They have been using the GM 4.3L V6 industrial engine for years (at least 10-12) it is more compact than the inline 4.2 I6 (1FZ 'Cruiser engine) they were using. THe engine is GM, that ENgine Harness is GM ( SAAB is a GM owned company now) the rest of the lift is Toyota /Aisin ( Aisin is a Toyota owned company )
do you work for southeast
Click to expand...
YES, I'm based in Raleigh/Wilson.
 
Blkvoodoo said:
YES, I'm based in Raleigh/Wilson.
Click to expand...

really? you dont happen to know dan do you? hes an on sight repairman for SE. mid to late fifties, drives one of the freightliner truck/van things for his work truck. i believe he's based out of the wilson shop. he fixes all our forklifts and pallet jacks.
 
awheelterd said:
really? you dont happen to know dan do you? hes an on sight repairman for SE. mid to late fifties, drives one of the freightliner truck/van things for his work truck. i believe he's based out of the wilson shop. he fixes all our forklifts and pallet jacks.
Click to expand...

yep, I know Dan, and his son Shane, there are currently 20 of us on the road, at this time, we are all out of Wilson, till next month when the Raleigh shop opens.

then 11 of us will be based out of Raleigh.
 
All the Ford dealership service departments around here are hurting for work, and have been for awhile now.

That's a sure sign that the quality is better.
 
Pacfanweb said:
All the Ford dealership service departments around here are hurting for work, and have been for awhile now.
That's a sure sign that the quality is better.
Click to expand...

Don't impress yourself, ALL car dealerships are hurting for work. and have been for awhile. Warranty work is the most prevelant work around right now, nobody want's to pay the $90hr+ labor rates when Joe shmoe down the road will to the repair for $65hr, granted, they aren't getting the same parts, and possibility they are not getting the same service, but it's all about the $$$, quality of service isn't as important right now.

I left a Chevy Dealership 2.5 years ago becuase there was no work ( except for warranty and even that was thin) that dealership is still struggling, as are others in the area.

Knowing all the recalls, special policies and TSB's that GM and Ford have ( and the few that Toyota has ) work is thin everywhere.

Even in the forklift business things are getting slow. Not as slow as the automotive work, but slower than it has been.
 
No, that's a sure sign no one can any longer afford a dealerships labor rates! Not being smart about it, thats just the truth. My father was a service manager for a Ford dealer for 20 yrs or so. When the economy sufers dealership customer pay also suffers, hope you like warranty work because thats about the bulk of it for awhile.
 
Blkvoodoo said:
Don't impress yourself, ALL car dealerships are hurting for work. and have been for awhile. Warranty work is the most prevelant work around right now, nobody want's to pay the $90hr+ labor rates when Joe shmoe down the road will to the repair for $65hr, granted, they aren't getting the same parts, and possibility they are not getting the same service, but it's all about the $$$, quality of service isn't as important right now.
I left a Chevy Dealership 2.5 years ago becuase there was no work ( except for warranty and even that was thin) that dealership is still struggling, as are others in the area.
Knowing all the recalls, special policies and TSB's that GM and Ford have ( and the few that Toyota has ) work is thin everywhere.
Even in the forklift business things are getting slow. Not as slow as the automotive work, but slower than it has been.
Click to expand...
Warranty work is most of what Domestic shops used to do.
It has dried up. The Domestic shops have lost FAR more warranty work than they have retail work.
THAT is why I said the quality is better, because it IS.

I'll bet you dinner anytime that we can ride around to dealerships around here and the Toyota and Honda guys will always have more work than the Ford and Chevy shops.

I worked at the largest dealership in the Southeast for 16 years. (Ford) I saw the best of times and it was getting to the worst of times when I left and became a vendor. Now the same dealership, which used to do warranty work out the hiney, has about 30 techs, (down from about 70 just 6 years ago), and can't even keep the ones they have left busy.

I do work for about 12-ish dealerships around the Triangle. The busiest ones are imports. And don't fool yourself, Toyota has TONS of TSB's, far more than they used to, and they have for quite awhile now....and the reason your Chevy dealership's warranty work dried up was because....wait for it.....the quality is BETTER now. There isn't as much warranty work, period. It didn't go somewhere else.

Ford came to us about 7 years ago, saying they wanted to help us grow our retail work because warranty work was going to decrease. They were correct. The vehicles are built better. The techs tell me the same thing at every dealership I go to.
The PERCEPTION has, for years, been that imports are better. That used NOT to be the perception. The 80's and early 90's crap domestics changed that. And it's not going to change back overnight. But that doesn't change the fact that GM and Ford (not so much Chrysler) have pretty much caught up with Toyota and Honda in quality. I probably wouldn't say they're dead even yet, but it's very close....much closer than it used to be.
 
The top selling cars are the IMPORT BRANDS at this time.

I own a 2007 Toyota Camry SE, you cannot drive down the road for 5 miles without passing a dozen 2007 Toyota Camrys, ( makes me sick, that it is that popular of a vehicle)

It would stand to reason that the most popular vehicles would also show up in the shops in higher numbers. Being that the imports are also selling more at this time, it would stand to reason that there are more vehicles in current warranty.

Toyota dealers seem to do well at marketing services, needed or not, they seem to be able to get traffic in the door. I'm tired of getting the phone calls / emails that my Camry is due for xxx service. The car has 22k on it, what could it possibly need that I cannot perform myself at this time ?

I'm not disputing that Ford has improved it's quality, though I have to admit, I think Toyotas quality has declined. I think that bothers me more than any of the rest. Just by shear numbers of vehicles sold quality numbers can be skewed (

As for NON warranty work, would you be willing to pay the dealership labor rate ( I believe the AVERAGE is about $95 an hour in the area, I could be wrong ) for basic/heavy repairs when an independant or <shiver> a franchise shop can do a similar service for $55-$80hr ? Many dealerships charge a seperate labor rate for "maintanance services" like tune ups and such, usually a slightly lower rate than full labor.

Though lately, FEWER folks are having anything worked on anywhere due to gas prices, and other economic uncertainties.

Most business in the area are down 35-40% compared to this time last year.

The best part of this, Toyota will step up it's quality ( or at least try too) to try and stay at the top, thats not a bad thing. That Ford quality is improving is also a good thing.
 
Dont forget the expectation level.
I read a survey lately saying that BMWs had 5x as many in shop days as Hyundais during the first year.

Guess Hyundai is better, right?

Nope the guy who buys a new $8,000 car (for the most part) is bragging to his friends about his new car, will never admit it has a problem, over looks many things and cant stand to be without his car for a day.

The BMW driver takes it in the first time the dash "pops", is meticulous as hell, and has enough disposable income to afford a rental for a few days.

Sadly the domestic consumer has learned to accept less.
That said I do feel that vehicle quality as a whole is at all time highs. Look through auto trader and see how many 100k+ mile vehicles there are. In the 80s people used to brag about their Yotas, Accords, etc going 100k....now days the cheapest econo Ford Chevy or Dodge make will click off 200k without a blink provided routine maintenance and sensible operation.
 
^agree with about all of that.

Independent shops are almost as expensive as the dealers now, and even more so when you factor in the money that the more frequent misdiag's that happen at independents.

And it's true that dealerships have a "maintenance rate" that's lower than their regular repair rate.
Otherwise, they'd never get any gravy work. Usually their basic stuff is priced on par with the independents.

Also true that Toyota, and Honda, have been better about retaining and training their customers to come back to the dealership for their maintenance work. This has been the case for years...and was one of the examples that Ford gave us when they were supposedly going to help us grow our maintenance work.

Along those lines, one more thing I'd like to mention is that it seems to me that domestic owners don't maintain their cars as well as import owners. Might just be the difference in the types of people who buy the different cars.....but I'd about guarantee that your average Taurus buyer will not maintain, and has not over the years maintained their vehicle as well as your average Camry or Accord buyers. Not saying the quality of the Taurus has always been good, but the maintenance of Tauruses certainly has not been on the level of its competitors...and that will be the same across the board with other brands and models, too. Does make a difference in the longevity of the vehicle.

Oh, and BMW's have TONS of problems. So do Mercedes lately. Kraut cars ain't what they used to be.
 
I purposely didn't involve "eurotrash", thats a whole other conversation/argument ;)

I think the folks that buy the Toyotas and Hondas are more concerned with where their money goes and how it's spent. Those who by the domestics are looking for the popular choice or looking for an A to B ride. little concern for value or longevity. ( tell me that a $50k Tahoe isn't a Soccer mom keeping up with the Jones' purchase )

As Ron (Skyhi) stated, quality has gotten better in the last 20 years across the board, but I think that has more to do with technology and federal mandates than actually trying to "improve" the over all vehicle line. Emmisions requirements made a BIG differance when the Fed's put a MANDATORY 80k mileage warranty on emissions equipment.
 
I'd always heard that it was the import owners that didn't maintain their cars. The old "It's a Honda, just put gas in it and go." And they still ran forever. My MIL is one of those. she's not what I'd call punctual about anything involving maintanence. When I changed the oil in her Honda last she couldn't tell me when it was done previously. No big deal, just change the oil. Same thing with her Exploder sport trac. I told her this thing ain't a honda, you have to change the oil in it! She laughed and threw me the keys to take to work and change the oil on it. Last year she got a Brand new big John Deere lawn mower. (She's got 13 acres to mow). When I started it up this year, it had 38 hours on it. Casually I asked when the oil change was done last. "Oh, it hasn't had one yet. I think it was supposed to be done at 20 hours or so." she said. Oh, well it's only an $8000 mower, no need to actually take care of the thing. So by the time I get around to getting a filter and oil for it, it's got 42 hours on it. (Supposed to be done at 25 hours according to the book.) It runs like crap idle surging and damn near cutting off. When I diraind the oil less than a quart came out. Book says it holds 1.8 qts. Fortunately, it's a Kawasaki engine. It might make the distance.

As for BMW, hell yea, they build big expensive steaming piles of dog shit. I know first hand. Starting with the E 65 7 series (latest (ugly) generation) and everything they've made since then has been a POS. And they've redone how we get our parts too. The reason BMW's have so many shop days is because I have to spend 2-3 days off and on checking this and testing that depending on what BMW wants me to check. I can't get a new friggin radio that the old one has a burned out display without having to stand on my head while wiggling my ears and checking the voltage to the telephone and programming the entire car (4-5 hours by itself) and emailing BMW in between each thing and waiting on them to come up with the next thing to waste my time checking something else. All that just to get clearance to order a new radio...


But they sure are fun as hell to drive!:driver:

Or have them drive themselves...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2RxEzTawfA&feature=related
 
Back
Top