FoU - Planning ideas

Yay!Gurrr

Yay!Gurrr

Better Faster Stronger
Moderator
Joined
Mar 17, 2005
Location
N. N. Raleigh, NC
I'm paraphrasing from other post so ..

1) There was mention of years worth of work to be done. I have asked in the past and will ask again.

What specifically are the tasks to be completed ?

2) Pre-planning trail ride ? Seriously, with digital cameras and GPS, WE should be leading by example and working together to HELP the FS to accomplish this WITHOUT wasting theirs or our time. Obviously this relates to #1 above.


Lets create a thread/document/map etc. for each trail where we can post photos and GPS cords of needed work. This can grow over time and be updated as issues.

With the amount of effort being put into the labor to perform the work surly someone out there is better suited and equipped to take on the sole task of documenting the trials and the work being done. This would go a long way to ensuring open and transparent conversations about needed work and completion of tasks creating more positive public awareness. (damn that sounds good..)

3) I can't speak for others but, I would be willing to do a whole lot more if this was better coordinated not only at the FS level but with the work planning efforts.

We've seen new rock garden thread, and new trail threads but where are they at ? (top secret BS)

When I see sticker threads and BS about air conditioned cabins I loose interest in attending 'these' work days.



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Regardless I know there may be others for what ever reasons would rather do work at their own pace on their own time.

I still STRONGLY feel we need to better allow and encourage ANYONE who wants to work to have a clearly outlined process to follow to determine.
1. What needs to be done. (see #1 above)
2. Where to go to get any needed tools or supplies. (see below)
3. Properly document their work. (see #2 above)


Idea/Proposal
WE as a group of smart OHV users, each with unique skills and talents MUST lead the way with developing solutions to these problems NOT simply deflecting blame.

I propose we create simple and effective methods and clearly document:
1) A standard method of outlining and detailing all trail work to be performed.
2) A standard method of allowing for interrupted yet ongoing and continuous maintenance to be performed by varying levels of skilled people with equally varying levels of equipment and tools.

3) Find a location where we can store tools and supplies that may be needed for light work. Shovels, Post hole diggers, etc..
Possibly a 20' shipping box stored somewhere down there or even an easily accessible rental unit.



Some other rant related BS.
------------------------------------
Rant Item #1
I want a list of people who will only attend a work day IF they have an air conditioned cabin to stay in.

I will pay for your entire weekend of lodging in the cabin. But you will be required to work with me at my pace for 6 hours each day.

Rant Item #2 I think we are lazy and if we just pulled out a damn shovel digging bar and auger we could get a lot done, yes it would require man power but we would reduce the need to rent equipment, transport and fuel it.

Rant Item #3
I would be willing to work longer and skip the free trail riding to see more work get done. I typically go down to work not ride. In fact if transportation to the work location could be arranged for a work crew, many would have no need to drive/trailer their rigs on the work day events.
 
reserved...


And to add.... This is NOT meant to derail or slow any current work or projects, simply a way to improve future work efforts.
 
I'm speaking for Eli. I do not know him. I'm just paraphrasng what I THINK he meant. Some folks like to stay in a cabin. Those folks get together and rent a cabin. Eli has been stuck with more than his share in the past. If there is "extra" money after everything else is paid for, he would used that money to cover the cabin.

If my group attends this work weekend, we will arrange for our own lodging and we will pay for it. It will be in a cabin. It's easier. We don't have to load and unload a bunch of camping gear, worry about weather, food storage, etc. The wives and GFs are more likely to come along. If they're happy, we have more opportunities to do work days AND to wheel.
 
Mike, great post. What I think you're saying is we need people to step up who have the experience skillset to help get this organized. Sitting on nc4x4 and bitching about this is not conducive to the overall goal of FoU. We need to realize that Eli is one person. He is a single person who has stepped up and is trying his best to organize the volunteer efforts. He needs constructive help with it, not for us to criticize his efforts. I think Eli has done a great job thus far. He has built some great relationships with the Forest Service, secured some good pricing on equipment rental, done a great job of securing funds for the work, and has overall fun with this whole project.


yager said:
2) Pre-planning trail ride ? Seriously, with digital cameras and GPS, WE should be leading by example and working together to HELP the FS to accomplish this WITHOUT wasting theirs or our time. Obviously this relates to #1 above.

Lets create a thread/document/map etc. for each trail where we can post photos and GPS cords of needed work. This can grow over time and be updated as issues.

With the amount of effort being put into the labor to perform the work surly someone out there is better suited and equipped to take on the sole task of documenting the trials and the work being done. This would go a long way to ensuring open and transparent conversations about needed work and completion of tasks creating more positive public awareness. (damn that sounds good..)
Click to expand...

Agreed. I'm sure there's an app for those things somewhere.. :) I'm within 45 minutes of URE and have four wheelers to navigate the trails quickly. I also have an android based phone that would prove to be quite helpful with this.

yager said:
3) I can't speak for others but, I would be willing to do a whole lot more if this was better coordinated not only at the FS level but with the work planning efforts.

We've seen new rock garden thread, and new trail threads but where are they at ? (top secret BS)

When I see sticker threads and BS about air conditioned cabins I loose interest in attending 'these' work days.
Click to expand...

There has to be a way to get the Forest Service more organized. I would like for Eli to outline how the work to be done is identified by the FS. Once we understand how the FS comes up with what needs to be done on the trails, then perhaps we can bring things to their attention and come up with a detailed list. From there we can draw up the maps, get GPS coords and pictures.

There have been several updates on the new trail. The FS stated it would be complete by September I believe. That info is in the latest work day thread. However, I think stuff like that should be more visible. A thread dedicated to the Saw Mill work would be ideal.

Why get so upset about stickers and cabins? If you don't want to partake in that then don't! These type incentives work for some people. We need all the help we can get. If a particular "idea" doesn't pan out then I'm sure Eli won't keep trying it. At least he's trying.

yager said:
Idea/Proposal
WE as a group of smart OHV users, each with unique skills and talents MUST lead the way with developing solutions to these problems NOT simply deflecting blame.

I propose we create simple and effective methods and clearly document:
1) A standard method of outlining and detailing all trail work to be performed.
2) A standard method of allowing for interrupted yet ongoing and continuous maintenance to be performed by varying levels of skilled people with equally varying levels of equipment and tools.

3) Find a location where we can store tools and supplies that may be needed for light work. Shovels, Post hole diggers, etc..
Possibly a 20' shipping box stored somewhere down there or even an easily accessible rental unit.
Click to expand...

This is great. There is no reason why we can't do work on non-official work days and report the work done back to the forest service.

regarding the line items:
1. We need to first identify the work required. Then we can come up with ways to document the work being done and keep track of work that has been completed. We can't just make up things that need to be done. We must communicate with the FS.

2. Not sure where you're going on this one. I think #1 would take care of this in itself. A list of things for people to choose from. Things could be listed out by specific trail project.

3. There is already a decent sized building at Arrowhead where tools are stored. Most of these tools are forest service owned. However, we could store our tools there as well. Janet Beck would be in charge of keeping track of who uses what. She already has a system in place for this.

yager said:
Some other rant related BS.
------------------------------------
Rant Item #1
I want a list of people who will only attend a work day IF they have an air conditioned cabin to stay in.

I will pay for your entire weekend of lodging in the cabin. But you will be required to work with me at my pace for 6 hours each day.
Click to expand...

I really don't understand your hang up with this cabin. It's an option for those who are traveling from farther locations who wish to stay and mingle with the other volunteers staying there. It's nicer than a tent and cheaper than a hotel. Eli is not paying for the entire weekend. He's trying NOT to do that. If there isn't enough interest in teh cabin then perhaps he'll abandon that idea.

yager said:
Rant Item #2 I think we are lazy and if we just pulled out a damn shovel digging bar and auger we could get a lot done, yes it would require man power but we would reduce the need to rent equipment, transport and fuel it.
Click to expand...

Of course we could all sweat our balls off and go home with achy sore muscles. The equipment gets larger tasks done more quickly. I'll dig 10 holes to your 1 with a bobcat. It also allows more people to take on the tasks that can't be done by equipment. LIke throwing out bails of hay for example. Simply put, we rent the damn bobcat 2-3 times a year to for large guard rail projects. It works great. I'm going to continue to contribute towards these rentals because it works.

yager said:
Rant Item #3
I would be willing to work longer and skip the free trail riding to see more work get done. I typically go down to work not ride. In fact if transportation to the work location could be arranged for a work crew, many would have no need to drive/trailer their rigs on the work day events.
Click to expand...

There was a free trail ride one time. We got everything accomplished that we set out to do that day. Every work day I've been to we've worked till at least 4-5pm. In the summer time you can work longer because it gets dark later. Trust me, people work pretty darn hard at these things.

That being said, I still think there is room for improvement. Getting a detailed plan of the work to be done will help to get more done. On the work days I've seen we have a massive number of people show up, but theres not enough work to go around. This is mostly because the Forest Service doesn't know what they want to do until the day we get there. They'll say "we're putting up guard rail on trail blah". We show up with 30 people and put up 14 pieces of guard rail. That's over kill.

So let's work towards identifying the work needed and devising a system to keep track of what is done and needs to be done. I think that will go a tremendously long way.

I volunteer to drive to URE and take pictures, GPS coords, etc. I'll be more than happy to help maintain the work needed documentation.
 
Identifying the work to be done ahead of time is key. The FS should at least have a plan of items on the list. Getting that list is key to estimating the # of people per task as well as equipment. Prioritizing the items is key as well.

If 30 people show up, then items 1-5 can be done, if 15 show up, maybe just items 1 and 2. Additional people could be put on the other items on the list based on priority.

If the FS can't furnish this, we can prob. get a good idea of what they want to do and submit a plan. Waiting on them to make a decision will frustrate everyone. Remember, this is the govt., so nothing goes fast nor does it ever get planned out like it should.

We know the FS has a lack of organization. Offer up a solution rather than just sitting waiting for direction. Offer direction. Seems that if they are not organized they need someone to take that organizer role.

Send some ideas or lists of things that need to be done and I'll be happy to start organizing them and putting some durations and manhours on tasks. I'm in construction so I have experience estimating man hours, materials, and equipment on various tasks.

I don't mind making phone calls. I can't come out to the work days much but would be happy to do what I can. I'm already tied up with work, family, and ECORS during the weekends.

I know of several 4x4 guys with equipment that could handle this work. I'm sure there are others out there that would be willing to help for very little or no $$$.

Its a lot of work and Eli is working hard on it. Thank You! I wish I had the time to help you out more.
 
I will try to this break this down the best I can, and keep everything relevant.

The current process of getting work organized/outlined is:

1.)A e-mail is sent out by Terry Savery before the work day letting everyone know approx. what will be done by what groups. This e-mail usually comes about a week out from the workday, and it may or may not come before she does trail inventory.

1/1.5)The Forest Service (usually Terry Savery) rides the trails and uses orange flagging to mark spots/work areas/problems. This is called trail inventory. For example according to the last time I heard from Terry she was riding the trails today to do the flagging for this Saturday. That means it is less than a week before this up coming work day, that the Forest Service will know EXACTLY what we will be doing.

2.)The general specifics of the work that we will be doing is conveyed to the group at the Hunt Camp the day of the workday. It isn't even an exact map/detailed layout. Its the trail, and approx. what we will be doing. It is not until we are actually on the trail and find the 1st marker that we start to find where exactly we will be working.

Now you have to consider if we are doing any work outside of trash cleanup, trail diamonds install, etc (light work) the Forest Service likes to have a Forest Service representative out with our group (or any group for that matter). In rare occasions we have done heavy work loads without someone from the Forest Service, and this was only because all other available Forest Service personnel we out on fires/out of town/etc.

So the idea of being able to come out on random days and be able to do any substantial work isn't going to happen under the current layout the Forest Service uses. If you would like to come out and do Trash Pickup/Put up trail diamonds, etc on a random day you have off, you can sign in with Janet Becker at Arrowhead and your work hours will be logged.

Beyond that a heavy workload workday outside of the scheduled 3rd weekend ones, has to be relayed through the Forest Service so they can have someone out there with you. And in all reality with the staffing they have, this is usually reserved for Clubs/Trail Adoptee's that can't make the regular work days and still want to come out and work on their trail. Because between fires, and people out of town for training and what any other reason they are very few Forest Service personnel around for the work days. We have had regular work days almost cancelled due to lack of Forest Service personnel, I don't see it going any better trying to them out the for more random workdays.

The idea of a master map/list of all the work that needs to be done is a nice idea. And I will gladly mention it to Deborah and Terry Friday. But I wouldn't put money on it happening. A couple of reasons.

1.)What we think needs to be done, and what they think needs to be done are 2 different things. The only way an accurate "master map/list" could be created is having us out there with the Forest Service doing trail inventory. Last time I attempted this, it took 3 months of e-mails and phone calls just to get Trail Inventory done on 1 trail. This was last year, and 90 percent of what Terry and I found on our trail inventory ride hasn't been done yet over a year later.

Us going out there and making this big list by ourselves is a nice idea. But the Forest Service would have to verify this list. Even if we made the list, added GPS coordinates, and added descriptions, there will be stuff "lost in translation". The Forest Service doesn't know the trail system like the back of their hand. I can talk to them about specific areas of the trails and they have no idea what I am talking about. I can point it out on a map (or even with GPS coordinates) where its at and they still don't know. Unless we are physically there with them on the trail it won't work, or we will end up with an inaccurate map/list.

For that matter we have been on a workday and found tree flagging for guard rail install. Terry (who put up the flagging) wasn't with us. Drew was with us, and without the person that put the flagging up we couldn't tell exactly where the guard rail need to start/end. Because everything isn't clear cut just by putting some orange tape on a tree. And for that matter there is old flagging still up from other trail inventories. There are too many variables to just give the Forest Service a map with GPS coordinates and maybe a description and expect them to be able to verify our list.

2.)The trail system is ever changing. Especially when considering the creation of illegal bypasses and spider trails. Which is a big (if not the main) focus for the Forest Service when planning work for the work days. This "master map/list" would have to be updated at the very least every month, if not every 2-3 weeks. Which means we would have to organize trail inventory rides for us with the Forest Service every month. And unlike the trail inventory Terry does before a workday which is riding 1 or 2 trails, we are talking riding every trail.

3.)I was talking with a friend of mine that works in the "Forest Service" of the Sand Hills Refuge in SC and he brought up some points having seen the "master map/list" idea implemented in person. Who will guarantee that people properly document the work that is done IF (big IF) we could get people out there working on random work days without FS supervision? What will end up happening is, someone will go out there to do a certain project and end up finding it was all ready done. People get upset, feel like they wasted their time, and then may not want to volunteer anymore.

I am not trying to say its impossible, or debunk this idea. It would be great if things could work so easily/smoothly. I just don't see it happening with all the variables above. And it makes me think there may be a reason that things are done the way they are currently.

My proposal would be for us to make a map/list of our concerns (I have a whole long list in my head) and submit it to the Forest Service. So when they do go on a trail inventory ride, they have a list/map to at least reference. We would still have to make trips to do trail inventory with them, but it would make our input available to them in a list/map form for when we can't be there for trail inventory.
 
I'm not talking about the monthly email, i'm talking more about a document that contains the history of work done, in progress, and new stuff. If its NOT in sync with the FS (for whatever reason) update it, move on.

All these issues you speak of are 100% correct and DO exist, I'm saying lets look and think byond that and HELP the FS. Be it providing them with OUR maps and us maintaing them as work is done, or us simply keeping pace with their updates.

Your comments about things not working are also correct, under the current method of performing work and communicating. As above I'm stating lets fix those issues and remove the "we can't" attitude.

Trail Inventory - I'd love to see the work done, this could save a ton of effort even if its outdated or changed, its a start. Is this avaliable for others to see and help contribute with?

As I suggested above, if a better method of locating points on the trail were developed and communicated (and demonstrated) to the FS, the tasks would be easier for to pick up and complete even if not completed by the previous person/work day.

My comment about uninterupted continuous work was directly point to solve that issue. Using your flagging example, if we had a standard way of flagging a work spot and used a clear marking system (that we can develop) to outline the work needed. Example: Installing metal rails, tree is flagged with 2 individual loops, one loop made on adjavent tree in the direction of rail to extend. Similar to be done with paint. Then we do it and snap a picture of what this should look like, making a simple 1 page info sheet, that prints nicely.

Lost in translation ? What is lost? Are you speaking their language? Lets find someone who can talk FS speek? Is it a personality thing? I know I rub a lot of people wrong, I have learned to shut up and let others talk who may have a better relationship with that person. (again group effort)


Simply walking off the trails and marking of 10th of mile incriments and writing it on the nearest orange diamond might help not only locate a spot but also provide a direction of travel indicator others have mentioned in the past.
Above, Again with a better locating system, they may very well choose to use it. If we develope something simple people will use it.

So this 90% not done list? What exactly needs to be done ?

Rather than wait for them to 'do the trail inventory' can we offer to be their hands and feet? Simply photo documenting the trail ? Posting pics for them to see, if there are question areas, request more pics in that area? Next weekend 100s of people will pass by if its clear what is needing AND communicated possibly one (or more) can snap the pic.. Thus creating a colaboerative project. The issues of ever changing trails and FS issues can be worked through by simple communications and centralizing the information.

As you point out and I agree, people will fail to document what work they have done, if the methods and processes plan for and allow for this it will not be an issue. Simple use a double or tripple verification method to confirm work done. THe next person driving on a trail who chooses to help can be informed that work in an area is/was needed. Have a description of what said work is to be, and verify it is done. Report it back when they get home.. So 3 people call in the same work effort.. Ok so what.. Its got done AND verified, cross it off the master list. ?

Eli I have no doubt you have done a mountain of work already, I'm simply proposing that you stop using the work "I" everywhere and turn it into a "WE" or "US" and seek assistance where it is needed. You can still drive the boat but sometimes others are needed to help keep it moving forward.
 
First Step: Identify the work that needs to be done. If trail inventory has been done and is not 100% done lets list those things out. Compile this into a single spreadsheet/document/website, something where we can easily share it with a large group. One or two people should be in charge of maintaining this document. (Google Docs comes to mind.)

Step two: Investigate each line item from step one. Detail the work needed by providing supporting documents with pictures, GPS coords or directions to the work area. Provide ordered tasks that need to be done to complete the work. This investigative work can be done by multiple parties. The persons maintaining step one can coordinate with volunteers to get the info and then compile it in easy to read documents. The document in step 1 should refer to these documents.

I'm more than happy to go out and do some "trail inventory" for step two. :) I'll even help with the document on step one. Just need someone to tell me what work needs to be done. EVEN if it's already scheduled to be done. (Ie this weekend or june work days.)

Once this is done we can work on a system to make sure the work gets done by making it visible and soliciting the community for help.
 
If we have ideas of what needs to be done ahead of time, I can prob. plan a Saturday to run around on the trails in my ATV (faster) and take some photos of the repair areas and log GPS cords...
 
Anyone against using a dingo, they are cheap and they'll fit in the back of a pickup. I've used them anytime I need to use an auger. I would feel more manly if I didn't mention using one of these, but they really are handy little suckers.
 
I don't know how well a walk behind/stand on dingo would navigate the trails in a lot of spots, but it would be perfect for some areas of work in the future.

The master map of work locations idea will be going forward. It won't be as simple as running out there and setting up a map of stuff to do. There will be a laid out process for this, and it will be an organized effort. I will post up more details when I have them.
 
I used to have a wheeled dingo for my landscaping ventures. I had it in some pretty hairy places. I used to pull it around on the trailer, but when I found out that I could drive that sucker right onto the truck, I never pulled it again. Even with all the hills and humps, tie downs would be just fine.

As far as the terrain, don't be afraid to roll them over. The controls are protected by the handlebars. Mine went over several times. Only time I got hurt was when I was wearing flip flops (lesson learned, no advice needed).

Maybe when you rent the skidsteers, you could pick a couple dingos up. Last time I had to rent one, it was only 135 skinnies.
 
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