Generator question

[upnover]

This year will be different than other years facing power issues due to the weather. I will have a Generator. The Generator I have is an Onan 5000 watt in my motor home. My plan is to run a power wire to where I park it, to be able to feed back to my breaker box. I know I can't run the well pump(220v) or the stove or dryer. I heat with a Monitor heater, so only need juice for the fan and controls. The fridge, Putor, and some lights will all I will need to pull.
How much, if any, fluctuation in power(surges) will I experience. I know I have to be wary of this because of the controls on the heater, and of the putors.
Any help and from experience is appreciated.
Chip

 

[Copasetic]

If it were me I would just be mindful of the power usage and while the tv and/or computers were being used I'd try not to use anything else except maybe a light or 2. To keep the fluctuations down I wouldn't run the fan on "auto". I'd turn it on and off manually for when I desired it and I'd make sure everything that was surge sensitive was turned off when the fan was turned back on or off.

The main thin though when powering your house with a generator is to make sure you cut off your house from the main disconnect. You don't want to be sending juice back down the line so an unsuspected power worker trying to get the power lines fixed gets a surprise.

 

[upnover]

Yeah I knew I had to throw the main breaker to keep it from getting someone or messing up my generator when it come back on.

Main reason I got to thinking about this is the current ice storm they are having in the north east. Granted, we may not see any, but as a good scout goes, I like to be prepared..
It baffles me how people can go so unprepared for stuff like this especially up there. Aux Heat is a must in my opinion. Add to that the ease of having a cook stove and so on, goes a long way.
we would be fine without the generator, but it'll be nice to not have to give up so much if we do loose power.
In the past we have filled jugs with water, I think now we will be OK to just fill the Hilton's tank and get it as we need it.
Worse comes to worse we can live out there for a while. I do intend on getting a carbon Monoxide alarm thing(like a smoke detector) to put in there so running the generator won't pose a health threat.

 

[blazeproc]

I ran a seperate 220v outlet on the side of my breaker box. I use a 5k gen also. I cut all the breakers off including the main one. I run my cord (big & thick) from the outlet to the generator. Cut on breakers one at a time depending on what I need at the time.
This outlet is the only thing on the circuit with its own breaker. You will be surprised at what you can run with a 5k gen. without alot of surges. Tons of power but uses the gas. So far at the same time, TVs, computers, water pump & hot water heater. If we use the stove then we cut off water heater, etc. I most ot the time go by the gen's sound and how much it has to work. Has been great for three years now. Good Luck

 

[upnover]

If I knew how to get 220 out of mine I would try the water pump too. It says 110/220 on the tag, but the outlet only gives out 110v, so not sure about all that.
My Generator pulls off of the rear tank that has 50 gallon capacity, so I should be good there. Luckily, gas is cheap now so not a big expense.

 

[Ron]

Chip in your situation I would just move in the Hilton for a few days if necessary.
Granted you could power the house but you have everything you need right there.

If you are set on using the lil Cummins to power the house you will be ok. Im not real slick on the Rv and marquis models but I can find out about 220 on them.

 

[kaiser715]

I have a 3k military set (they call it 3kw...but that's 24/7 at who knows what altitude...I don't know how it matches up with the off-the-shelf ones). It will pretty much run the house, with the exception of the heat pump and electric water heater. Actually, I've never tried the HWH, and I'm not gonna risk the heat pump.

Takes longer to heat up, but you can cut out one element on the HWH, and run on one...IIRC, some heaters only burn one element at the time anyway.

Especially on the cheaper units, they can be kinda screwy on the sine wave form. Be careful what electronics you plug into it. Being an onan, you should be OK...but all my electronics are run thru power conditioners/UPS units first.

Thanks for the reminder, too...it's been a few months since I've fired mine up. I need to put fresh gas in and fire it off.

 

[hscrugby]

Being an onan, you should be OK...but all my electronics are run thru power conditioners/UPS units first.

Thanks for the reminder, too...it's been a few months since I've fired mine up. I need to put fresh gas in and fire it off.

ESPECIALLY the computer.
You can get a cheap ups that would "suck" for battery backup, but will REALLY clean up the power from a generator for 30-60$
VERY worth it.

 

[RatLabGuy]

I'm curious about something that ties into this.
If you were to do the "plug into the main box" method, and simply shut off the main incoming line to safely run your power (as one hsould)...
... then how do you know when the incoming power has been fixed/is back on?
Just keep an eye on the neighbor's house?
I'm hoping to get a generator soon for the same reasons above. However don't have any street lights nearby, nor neibghbors whom use enough light to tell from my house (visuall) if they have power.

 

[marvilusone]

I'm curious about something that ties into this.
If you were to do the "plug into the main box" method, and simply shut off the main incoming line to safely run your power (as one hsould)...
... then how do you know when the incoming power has been fixed/is back on?
Just keep an eye on the neighbor's house?
I'm hoping to get a generator soon for the same reasons above. However don't have any street lights nearby, nor neibghbors whom use enough light to tell from my house (visuall) if they have power.

Wire up a seperate 115V outlet on the side of the box that taps directly into the main before the breaker. Plug in something like a clock radio or a drop light to let you know when the power is back on.

 

[Ron]

Wire up a seperate 115V outlet on the side of the box that taps directly into the main before the breaker. Plug in something like a clock radio or a drop light to let you know when the power is back on.

BAD BAD IDEA....

before the main breaker you have ZERO overcurrent protection.
If there was a transformer issue you would burn your house down when the wire burst into flames

 

[89wrangler]

When we had the ice storm a few years back, I used a 5K generator to power the well pump, kitchen and living room. This gave us use of the fridge, microwave, lights, TV ,satalite, computer, and water. Used the gas grill to cook and the gas logs for heat. Not bad considering. The only thing was no Hot water, but we got by. To reduce the flack from all the play by the rules guys, I can Pm you what I did that worked just fine and will not burn your house down or ruin your generator or breaker box. Steve

 

[Ron]

^ plug it in to a dryer or stove outlet and flip the main breaker?

I think thats Chip's plan

 

[upnover]

Chip in your situation I would just move in the Hilton for a few days if necessary.
Granted you could power the house but you have everything you need right there.

If you are set on using the lil Cummins to power the house you will be ok. Im not real slick on the Rv and marquis models but I can find out about 220 on them.

Way back when I first got the RV you had told me that you could get me a manual on it, I guess I need to send you a modle number huh. If we have bad enough weather and loose power, one BIG reason I want to keep the heat on in our home is so I don't have to fix a bunch of pipes.

I'm curious about something that ties into this.
If you were to do the "plug into the main box" method, and simply shut off the main incoming line to safely run your power (as one hsould)...
... then how do you know when the incoming power has been fixed/is back on?
Just keep an eye on the neighbor's house?
I'm hoping to get a generator soon for the same reasons above. However don't have any street lights nearby, nor neibghbors whom use enough light to tell from my house (visuall) if they have power.

Yes, and also I have outside lights that are not run thru my meter(streetlight type) if during the day, the cable company has a box that has power run to it and a little light at the top to indicate power for during the day.

When we had the ice storm a few years back, I used a 5K generator to power the well pump, kitchen and living room. This gave us use of the fridge, microwave, lights, TV ,satalite, computer, and water. Used the gas grill to cook and the gas logs for heat. Not bad considering. The only thing was no Hot water, but we got by. To reduce the flack from all the play by the rules guys, I can Pm you what I did that worked just fine and will not burn your house down or ruin your generator or breaker box. Steve

We'll talk in Mnt City

^ plug it in to a dryer or stove outlet and flip the main breaker?

I think thats Chip's plan

No. My plan is to run an outlet to where it's parked. To be used for power to the RV, for charging, and so on. Not a big expense since I have so much power wire on hand. Then make a cord to plug into the Generator, and to the outlet. In other words, a power cord with a male end, on both ends.

 

[marvilusone]

BAD BAD IDEA....
before the main breaker you have ZERO overcurrent protection.
If there was a transformer issue you would burn your house down when the wire burst into flames

Possibly I didn't go in depth enough. When I say wire in I mean correct gauge wire, breaker/fuse, and outlet. Essentially what you are doing is adding a seperate ""box" and a small 15A main breaker for it. You just tap into the main wires into your current box and run the newly tapped in wires to a breaker or fuse and then to your outlet. I never meant to suggest I was saying to wire up an outlet or anything else without a breaker or fuse. My father has this done on my parent's house and has done it for who even knows how many others. Also because of where we lived in the mountains we lost power regularly and my parents and a few of their neighbors chipped in on an older diesel military generator. I don't know the size of it but it was enough to run around 4 complete houses. BTW he is a licensed electrician of over 35 years.

 

[RatLabGuy]

We have gas water heater (woot), and heat is via a gas-powered boiler (water) for baseboard radiators.

Which makes me wonder - how much power could that heat system need? Seems only electrical device on it is the motor driving the pump to push/cycle the water. Unf I can't find a plate or any docs w/ power draw... best I can tell, looks like the lines to it are prob just 14 ga, but it's ooold wires w/o labeling.
I'm renting so don't really want to go poking in/taking it apart too much... have a call in to the landlord to see if he knows, he used to live here. No label for it on the breaker box - could it just be 110v, just enough power for the pump?

 

[RatLabGuy]

Possibly I didn't go in depth enough. When I say wire in I mean correct gauge wire, breaker/fuse, and outlet. Essentially what you are doing is adding a seperate ""box" and a small 15A main breaker for it. You just tap into the main wires into your current box and run the newly tapped in wires to a breaker or fuse and then to your outlet.

One thing I've been wondrin gabout the "backfeed" system idea...
You are plugging the generator into the house unit via a 15A (or even 20) breaker circuit, which presumably would have the matching 14 ga wiring.
But if you're using this to power many items, e.g. your 3k-5kW generator/usage, isn't it pulling close to or more than 15A through that connection, exceeding what it's rated/desinged for?
110v into the dryer outlet seems safer, that's at least 30A rated

 

[blazeproc]

My panel box is in my garage. So I put a 30a 220volt oulet underneath the box. Run my wires to a 30a breaker. When we loose power, i hook a male 30a plug into the generator outlet and then run it to the 220v outlet on the wall. Flip the Main breaker off and the generator will put power to the box when that breaker is on. Cut only the breakers that you need on or the ones that can be run with other stuff.
So far we have ran everything in our house that needed to be powered. Depending what you run is whether it can run with other stuff.
My generator is 5K from tractor supply, so far so good. the biggest thing for us is having enough gas to run it for long periods of time.

 

[kaiser715]

Just an FYI.... If you are afraid you'll screw up and forget to trip the main and backfeed to the grid, they (SquareD, Seimons, others) make interlock kits that attach to your panel cover, and keep you from turning "on" the generator outlet breaker without first turning "off" the main breaker.

I just always remember flip the main off, and go in thru my welder outlet in the shop.

It would be nice to have a manual transfer switch between the meterbase and panel...but jeez, $$$$$

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ww...tring=DPDT++switch+200A&submit.x=0&submit.y=0

$1261, yikes! (this is like what my neighbor put in....)

 

[willness33]

One thing I've been wondrin gabout the "backfeed" system idea...
You are plugging the generator into the house unit via a 15A (or even 20) breaker circuit, which presumably would have the matching 14 ga wiring.
But if you're using this to power many items, e.g. your 3k-5kW generator/usage, isn't it pulling close to or more than 15A through that connection, exceeding what it's rated/desinged for?
110v into the dryer outlet seems safer, that's at least 30A rated

In short, yes. Your backfeed wire/circuit needs to be able to handle the amperage output on the genset. If the wire is rated properly, your safe. Every newer generator I've seen has built in breakers for overdraw protection. You max it out, you trip the breaker.

Here's what I did. I have a 5K watt gen that puts out 220 @ 20 amps. This is plenty to run my house. I have a gas furnace, gas hot water and a gas stove. All I need the generator for is lights, fridge and the motor on the forced air furnace, which pulls esentially nothing after startup. That in mind, here's my setup. I have a double pull 20 in my box labeled generator. It's wired to a 220V/20amp twist lock generator receptacle with 12/3 wire. The "extension" for the generator is a wire with 2 male ends, one for the generator, one for the receptacle. The wire is some nice flexy 12/3 wire also. The power-up procedure is this: Turn off all breakers, including the main. Plug in generator extension. Start the gen. Turn on the "generator" breaker, followed by all of the rest, one at a time, EXCEPT the main. Enjoy the good life while your neighbors hate you.

Oh, one more thing I did, but I'm not sure it's necessary. I have a ground stake where I actually run the generator and I throw a jumper cable on it and ground the case of the generator.

 

[uglyjeepoffroad]

Or, if you are worried, a service disconnect is not too expensive if you know how to wire it yourself.
We use them on our cell sites to keep from backfeeding.

 

[Ron]

Possibly I didn't go in depth enough. When I say wire in I mean correct gauge wire, breaker/fuse, and outlet. Essentially what you are doing is adding a seperate ""box" and a small 15A main breaker for it. You just tap into the main wires into your current box and run the newly tapped in wires to a breaker or fuse and then to your outlet. I never meant to suggest I was saying to wire up an outlet or anything else without a breaker or fuse. My father has this done on my parent's house and has done it for who even knows how many others. Also because of where we lived in the mountains we lost power regularly and my parents and a few of their neighbors chipped in on an older diesel military generator. I don't know the size of it but it was enough to run around 4 complete houses. BTW he is a licensed electrician of over 35 years.

It doesnt matter what gauge wire you use or where you mount your breaker. When you leave the meter base there must be only 1 path to the main distribution panel. The entire house is protected from surges by the main breaker in the primary distribution panel.

To do what you suggest legally and safely you would have to leave the meter base and hit a primary distribution panel with only 2 breakers. One would be a 100A or 200A which would feed the rest of the house in to what would then become a secondary distribution panel with appropriate bonding considerations, and the second would feed your outlet.

Double tapping any lugs is blatantly illegal and specifically not allowed for in the code.
I am not saying it cant be done or that it wont work or that it is even dangerous, I am only saying it is not legal nor the right way to do it.

I am sure if you talk to your dad he can tell you the same thing. For what its worth I am a licensed master electrician and have an unlimited electrical contractors license in NC and SC. I run a small electrical contracting company that i am growing and my day job is a sales and design engineer for Cummins Power Generation specifying and selling emergency power systems, and Onan is a Cummins company.

One thing I've been wondrin gabout the "backfeed" system idea...
You are plugging the generator into the house unit via a 15A (or even 20) breaker circuit, which presumably would have the matching 14 ga wiring.
But if you're using this to power many items, e.g. your 3k-5kW generator/usage, isn't it pulling close to or more than 15A through that connection, exceeding what it's rated/desinged for?
110v into the dryer outlet seems safer, that's at least 30A rated

Ok a few points here.
if its a 20A circuit it better have 12 ga wire a 15A breaker would be ok with 14. If a contractor is wiring houses today with 14 gauge wire I would run not walk the other way. that tells me a ton about his concern for quality (but I digress this is an older house)

Now let me preface all this, backfeeding through a distribution breaker is not allowed by NEC and not recommended by me, but I realize many do it commonly and I will try to give info for how to do it as safely as possible.

if you are plugging into a 110 circuit or even a 220 circuit using a 100v output from a generator, you will only feed half the house (either A or B phase) to power the whole house you need A&B phase powered. If you hit a 220V outlet with 220V you will light up both sides of the bus bar. Alternatively you could plug into two separate 120V outlets on opposite phases, this would take some work to figure out but just looking at the panel cover should give you some ideas where to go.

And finally, I can get residential SERVICE ENTRANCE RATED AUTOMATIC transfer switches rated 200A for under $1,000.

This allows you to intercept the feed between the meter base and the main panel, run it into a contained breaker (that is rated as service entrance equipment) inside the ATS and then feed the main panel in the house. Anyone paying $1,500 for a manual transfer switch better be getting 3phase industrial and at least 600A rating....

 

[upnover]

Ron not sure what you mean about half the house. Both sides of my breaker box are tied together at the top and bottom. All of my 220 outlets feed from the same place, one on top of the other.
ANother question, something I have always wondered. My ground, and my common are tied together in my box also. So, what's the difference?

 

[Caver Dave]

Ron not sure what you mean about half the house.

220V single phase is simply 2 isolated 110V legs. If you only feed your panel with 110V (1 leg), only the 110V breakers attached to that leg/buss bar will function.

 

[Ron]

ANother question, something I have always wondered. My ground, and my common are tied together in my box also. So, what's the difference?

For all practical purposes in a 110/220 single phase residential application there is no difference between the neutral and the ground (i.e. grounding conductor versus grounded conductor for the code junkies) There is no common, that would be in a DC control circuit, but I digress.

Note that the above statement will carry you through anything you need to think through but there are some different installations (installing a secondary sub panel to feed an addition for instance) where the above would not hold true.

If you ever want to re wire the house call me for any add on stuff you will do just assume the ground and neutral are the same.

Ron not sure what you mean about half the house. Both sides of my breaker box are tied together at the top and bottom. All of my 220 outlets feed from the same place, one on top of the other.

I'll skip all the sine wave explanation and say that 220v is a house is derived from one leg being +110V while the other leg is -110V, and thee two legs are perfectly opposite out of phase. This is why if you go to your dryer outlet and use a multi meter you get 110 from either hot to ground but 220 hot to hot.

in order to keep from having transformers in everyones house utilities feed two 110V circuits perfectly opposite phase and the main distribution panel (breaker box) separates them.

There are 2 styles here
1) Is called Pillared or columned separation and is by far the most common.
In this configuration your breaker box is most likely numbered
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10
11 12
13 14
15 16
17 18
19 20 etc
and the main breaker is fed by two separate hots and each one feeds a given straight line copper bus that runs down the back of the panel. All the breakers on the left snap to bus "A" and the breakers on the right snap to bus "B" This is said to be A phase and B phase.
the buses are perfectly (ok....again for those who want to argue semantics, nothing is perfectly isolated but practically perfectly) isolated

2) The second arrangement is actually technically superior but more costly to produce and as such has been pretty much eliminated from existance
In that configuration the numbering above *should* look like
1 11
2 12
3 13
4 14
5 15
6 16
7 17
8 18
9 19
10 20

In this case the breaker is still fed from the meter with 2 hots and still feeds two dedicated copper bus bars but now instead of straight lines they look like interlocking letter "E"s such that
1,11,3,13,5,15,7,17,9,19 are "A" phase and 2,12,4,14,6,16,8,18,10,20 are "B" phase.

Now all this is easy enough until I tell you that you can't trust the numbering systems because Cutler hammer and Square D got in the spec war years ago and tried to get each others product speced out as non conforming and as a result each changed their numbering protocol back and forth multiple times.

The above formats should hold true for panels bought today, and again i am taling strictly single phase resi panels.

To determine which panel configuration you have look in the inside cover there should be a simple diagram there.

Since the two bus bars are isolated (A/B) if you plug 110 into a single outlet you will only power half the breakers in the panel. You *could* feed a second 110 into an outlet on the leg and get all your 110 hot, BUT MAKES SURE YOU SWITCH OFF ALL 220v breakers as you will be feeding two legs in phase...