Home electrical panel help

rabb11d

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
Location
Statesville,NC
I'm planning to add some tools that require 220 volts. So I need to add some circuits.

Google and YouTube a bunch but can't find a good answer if my panel can handle it?

I can swap out some of the 20amp breakers for the double deals in the single slot to free up space to either add the circuits or add breaker to run a sub panel.

I under stand the how I just don't want to overload anything and burn the house down...

200 main breaker in the panel.
All breakers add up to 1020.

The equipment I add will be near the panel.


37ae231f530ab7bcf9c0d8184151d278.jpg


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200 main breaker in the panel.
All breakers add up to 1020.
.
Is this the part that bothers you?

If so it shouldn't. There's really no way you could actually draw that much current. You'd have to have something maxing out every circuit at the same time.
if you'd like to know what the draw really is, at a high load time (like when AC is running and stove is on and water heater and etc etc) put a current clamp meter around that main line. You'l be surprised how low it actually is.
 
You are asking if your panel can handle it, but you aren't saying what IT is, what kind of amps is this new equipment pulling?

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You are asking if your panel can handle it, but you aren't saying what IT is, what kind of amps is this new equipment pulling?

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Table saw, 3hp.
Dust system.
Wood working stuff.
Not sure what else.
I don't have said tools yet so not 100% on what or how many...

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Is this the part that bothers you?

If so it shouldn't. There's really no way you could actually draw that much current. You'd have to have something maxing out every circuit at the same time.
if you'd like to know what the draw really is, at a high load time (like when AC is running and stove is on and water heater and etc etc) put a current clamp meter around that main line. You'l be surprised how low it actually is.
It doesn't bother me, I just have no idea what is "ok".
Everything I've read is very gray and I like black and white answers.

I can borrow one of the clip on amp deals, thanks for the idea.

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That box is already pretty full, you could add a few more mini tandems but for what you're wanting to do might be better off adding a sub panel. Your plan is sound though, just make sure your wire and outlet is rated the same as your breaker.
 
I've done what your wanting to do. Remember that over all is if.......big if..... you could run everything at once. More likely start everything at once. The in rush current draw will always be a higher spike, unless your building load like some sort of large motor under a fluctuating load.


Of you go for a sub panel you have to feed that panel with an over sized breaker for predicted load. Ideally just like the main with some overhead. If you do another straight from the meter that's a whole other class of operation and code I personally want touch on.


Unless the loads....devices are a good ways away I'd do as planned. Correct wire and breakers as suggested. I cleaned out some baseboard strips and replaced some breakers to stack like you stated. My difference was the loads where in a separate building at the time. I choose a single large breaker and sub panel. It also limited my ability to grow past that 75 amp single breaker. Broken into two light receptacle circuits and a dedicated welder plug was all I could manage.
 
I can borrow one of the clip on amp deals, thanks for the idea.
Don't worry about that. If you're worried about tripping the main, the proper way to check is with a load calc. There are tools online that will help you do it. You just need to know how many convenience circuits there are and the nameplate ratings of all motors/appliances/ etc.
 
The only thing that really matters from a fire hazard standpoint is if the feeders are adequately protected by the 200A main, and if the branch circuit breakers are appropriately sized. Nuisance tripping isn’t a fire hazard, just a personal nuisance.
 
Don't worry about that. If you're worried about tripping the main, the proper way to check is with a load calc. There are tools online that will help you do it. You just need to know how many convenience circuits there are and the nameplate ratings of all motors/appliances/ etc.

The problem with load calcs in a standard resi application is they dont properly account for diversity and will have him way oversize his panel.

Sidebar - true story time - the manufacturer I rep for currently has a new tech product they are bringing to industry that Ive been involved with a beta/pilot with for ~15 months as a technical consultant and local SME. This product is aimed at homeowners. And it does a number of things but the point relevant to this conversation is its load and usage monitoring capabilities. We currently have 200 of these devices deployed in NC and SC across a strategic range of houses. Over 70% of the homes are finding that their actual peak instantaneous consumption is below 50A. These are on services ranging from a standard 200A resi service, to a 400A heavy resi to in 3 cases a 3x200A resi multi service.
Now the nature of our business and the concept of design days meas we have to over size for worst case scenario. All of us in the loop get it and understand why this is. But someone who doesnt have a lot of electrical experience this doesnt make any sense to them.

Hence you get the OPs concern that he has 1020A connected to a 200A main and it seems like the main will "fail" because it cant handle this.

So for the point of education I will offer this to the OP.
Your utility (Most likely Duke) brings a service into your house that can carry in practicality any load you put on it. Its a niagra falls supply of water.
At the top of you panel (top theoretically speaking in actual practice of your pic its at the bottom) is the main breaker that corrals all that water and only allows 200A to flow through. You can back up 10Gigawatts of water and that 200A funnel will only allow 200A through. That is the point of service entrance. Then that breaker puts up to a max of 200A onto a copper bus in the back of the panel and it has -in this case - 42 taps that can each take some of that water. In theory you could have 42 200A taps there (not really for a couple reasons but just play along) but if you had 42 200A feeds each of those feeds would have to be rated for 200A. This means the water pipe would have to be sized to flow 200A. In this case that water pipe is wire size. Instead they choke these down because they don't need 200A at each faucet they only need 20A. So a 20 breaker can hold back the full 200A that is being limited by the main but only allow 20A to flow through its gate. The 200A is standing at the top (bottom in this case) monitoring all those little taps and measuring them all and if they all use more than available it shuts off the tap. If one individual circuit is grossly offending its portion then its individual breaker will trip and take it out of the mix.

That's why you have over 1,000 amps of breaker fed from a 200A breaker

One final point of thought that will probably help OP sleep better.
There are 5,040 hours in a 30 day month.
A KWH (how you are billed for electricity) is a kilowatt hour. That is 1 kilowatt of power continuous for 1 hour.. (for example 2 kw used for 30 minutes is 1kwh or .5 kw used to 2 hours is 1 kwh)...
1 kw at 240V single phase is roughly 5 amps(4.16 for the nerds).

If your house used 5 amps of 240V continuously 24/7 that would be 5,040 kwh per month.
Duke varies a little by location but NC's blended average is 11.5 cents per kwh.

Meaning if you used 5A continuously for a month your power bill would be around $580 per month. You can look at this and quickly realize your average usage is probably much, much less than 5A TOTAL. Across your entire house.

That helps to illustrate why you can have a 200A panel and add a 75A sub panel to it and not over load it.

That's the background on why.

Now this is not professional advice in any way. This is just a random dude typing on the internet who probably doesnt know what he is talking about. Take it at face value..

That said if I was doing this I would pick up:
about 5 foot of 3-3-3-5 SE Copper cable. My local home depot caries it and its about $6/ft. (You can buy aluminum wire, most people would, I dont like aluminum wire if I an avoid it for sub panels and short runs. Since we only need 5-6' Id pay the premium.But if money is tight you could save about $5 using aluminum wire but it would need to be larger.)

Then I'd pick up a Square D HOM2100C breaker. That should run you about $35.
Next Id pick up a sub panel. For this case a HOM2040L125PGC will work fine. That will run you $50 (That's a main lug only - you don't need a main breaker in the sub panel. You have a main in your current panel and the new breaker above feeding this panel)

You will need some breakers for your new panel sized to your new equipment, but this panel will give you the space to relocate a couple circuits from your existing panel over to this new panel. You will need a couple of connectors at each panel for the SER cable to come in and out of. But other than that you will be in business.
Also - of course you will hire a licensed electrician to do all this. Any one worth his salt will know this, but shockingly lots of folks carry license and dont know how to change a light build these days. Just glance over his shoulder, or ask innocently to be sure he doesnt bond the neutral and ground in the sub panel. ;)
 
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Thanks everyone for your responses, especially @Ron for one of the most detailed responses ever.

I'm going to move forward with a sub panel.

I can always count on a bunch of random dudes I've never met who may or may not go off-road to provide some info I can follow at my own risk!

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The problem with load calcs in a standard resi application is they dont properly account for diversity and will have him way oversize his panel.

Sidebar - true story time - the manufacturer I rep for currently has a new tech product they are bringing to industry that Ive been involved with a beta/pilot with for ~15 months as a technical consultant and local SME. This product is aimed at homeowners. And it does a number of things but the point relevant to this conversation is its load and usage monitoring capabilities. We currently have 200 of these devices deployed in NC and SC across a strategic range of houses. Over 70% of the homes are finding that their actual peak instantaneous consumption is below 50A. These are on services ranging from a standard 200A resi service, to a 400A heavy resi to in 3 cases a 3x200A resi multi service.
Now the nature of our business and the concept of design days meas we have to over size for worst case scenario. All of us in the loop get it and understand why this is. But someone who doesnt have a lot of electrical experience this doesnt make any sense to them.

Hence you get the OPs concern that he has 1020A connected to a 200A main and it seems like the main will "fail" because it cant handle this.

So for the point of education I will offer this to the OP.
Your utility (Most likely Duke) brings a service into your house that can carry in practicality any load you put on it. Its a niagra falls supply of water.
At the top of you panel (top theoretically speaking in actual practice of your pic its at the bottom) is the main breaker that corrals all that water and only allows 200A to flow through. You can back up 10Gigawatts of water and that 200A funnel will only allow 200A through. That is the point of service entrance. Then that breaker puts up to a max of 200A onto a copper bus in the back of the panel and it has -in this case - 42 taps that can each take some of that water. In theory you could have 42 200A taps there (not really for a couple reasons but just play along) but if you had 42 200A feeds each of those feeds would have to be rated for 200A. This means the water pipe would have to be sized to flow 200A. In this case that water pipe is wire size. Instead they choke these down because they don't need 200A at each faucet they only need 20A. So a 20 breaker can hold back the full 200A that is being limited by the main but only allow 20A to flow through its gate. The 200A is standing at the top (bottom in this case) monitoring all those little taps and measuring them all and if they all use more than available it shuts off the tap. If one individual circuit is grossly offending its portion then its individual breaker will trip and take it out of the mix.

That's why you have over 1,000 amps of breaker fed from a 200A breaker

One final point of thought that will probably help OP sleep better.
There are 5,040 hours in a 30 day month.
A KWH (how you are billed for electricity) is a kilowatt hour. That is 1 kilowatt of power continuous for 1 hour.. (for example 2 kw used for 30 minutes is 1kwh or .5 kw used to 2 hours is 1 kwh)...
1 kw at 240V single phase is roughly 5 amps(4.16 for the nerds).

If your house used 5 amps of 240V continuously 24/7 that would be 5,040 kwh per month.
Duke varies a little by location but NC's blended average is 11.5 cents per kwh.

Meaning if you used 5A continuously for a month your power bill would be around $580 per month. You can look at this and quickly realize your average usage is probably much, much less than 5A TOTAL. Across your entire house.

That helps to illustrate why you can have a 200A panel and add a 75A sub panel to it and not over load it.

That's the background on why.

Now this is not professional advice in any way. This is just a random dude typing on the internet who probably doesnt know what he is talking about. Take it at face value..

That said if I was doing this I would pick up:
about 5 foot of 3-3-3-5 SE Copper cable. My local home depot caries it and its about $6/ft. (You can buy aluminum wire, most people would, I dont like aluminum wire if I an avoid it for sub panels and short runs. Since we only need 5-6' Id pay the premium.But if money is tight you could save about $5 using aluminum wire but it would need to be larger.)

Then I'd pick up a Square D HOM2100C breaker. That should run you about $35.
Next Id pick up a sub panel. For this case a HOM2040L125PGC will work fine. That will run you $50 (That's a main lug only - you don't need a main breaker in the sub panel. You have a main in your current panel and the new breaker above feeding this panel)

You will need some breakers for your new panel sized to your new equipment, but this panel will give you the space to relocate a couple circuits from your existing panel over to this new panel. You will need a couple of connectors at each panel for the SER cable to come in and out of. But other than that you will be in business.
Also - of course you will hire a licensed electrician to do all this. Any one worth his salt will know this, but shockingly lots of folks carry license and dont know how to change a light build these days. Just glance over his shoulder, or ask innocently to be sure he doesnt bond the neutral and ground in the sub panel. ;)
All of this. I have 2 - 200 amp panels in my house. I have been in the house over a year now and have yet to have a light bill over $155. For kicks, I ran my whole house, minus the dryer but including my AC, a few weeks ago off my 6500w/8500w peak generator. I didn't have my meter that evening so I can't say for certain how many amps I was pulling, but the readout on the generator said the highest I ever got to was 70 percent of the generators capacity. That was only for a few minutes while my AC started up and the fan ran full speed.
 
One final point of thought that will probably help OP sleep better.
There are 5,040 hours in a 30 day month.
A KWH (how you are billed for electricity) is a kilowatt hour. That is 1 kilowatt of power continuous for 1 hour.. (for example 2 kw used for 30 minutes is 1kwh or .5 kw used to 2 hours is 1 kwh)...
1 kw at 240V single phase is roughly 5 amps(4.16 for the nerds).

If your house used 5 amps of 240V continuously 24/7 that would be 5,040 kwh per month.
Duke varies a little by location but NC's blended average is 11.5 cents per kwh.

Meaning if you used 5A continuously for a month your power bill would be around $580 per month. You can look at this and quickly realize your average usage is probably much, much less than 5A TOTAL. Across your entire house.

20201001_120053.jpg

Those are rookie numbers. Gotta get those numbers up

20201001_120053.jpg
 
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The problem with load calcs in a standard resi application is they dont properly account for diversity and will have him way oversize his panel.
That's why the calculator applies diversity reductions depending on the circuit type.
 
Those are rookie numbers. Gotta get those numbers up

View attachment 327527

Had service at work double one month a few years ago and stayed double. Called power company and they said they had changed meters and our old one must have been wrong for the last 20yrs. Fuuuu... I just couldn't believe it. I started doing the calculations and realized that the actual service panel itself wouldn't handle the load they were saying we were using so I kept complaining. Finally got ahold of an engineer at the power company who humored me and agreed to change the meter again. Power bill went back to normal... Come to find out the meter they had put in had a multiplier in it somehow. They hand delivered the rebate check.
 
That's why the calculator applies diversity reductions depending on the circuit type.
Right but it isn't won't be nearly enough.

This is that weird cross section of having the book knowledge to understand why it's right, and also the field experience to know it's wrong.
 
Right but it isn't won't be nearly enough.

This is that weird cross section of having the book knowledge to understand why it's right, and also the field experience to know it's wrong.

Sounds like you're suggesting we ignore the electrical code.
 
Sounds like you're suggesting we ignore the electrical code.
I'm too tired and the bourbon is too old to go there with thumbs tonight.
But no.
For 1 - 220.12 is being totlly redone in 2020 edition.
Which is relevant.When NEC realizes they are over sizing and rewrites the code...that tells ya something. Sure LED proliferation plays a large part here. Not denying that .

But further - design of new service isn't required for maintenance it's intended for initial sizing which takes into account future additions in its calc backbone so to speak.i didn't read any mention of additional square footage

But again I'm a random idiot on the internet following my advice isn't electrical device and may burn your house down. Past earnings not indicative of future results. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear. Don't drink and drive. Remember your sunscreen. Buckle up and keep all arms and legs inside the car boobs are permited outside the car. Your mileage may vary.
 
But further - design of new service isn't required for maintenance it's intended for initial sizing which takes into account future additions in its calc backbone so to speak.i didn't read any mention of additional square footage

Equipment is counted separately, irrespective of building area.
 
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