Home Wiring Help

Macdaddy4738

Macdaddy4738

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Trying to do a few "easy" things, and seems like everything I get into becomes a giant project. Welcome to home ownership I suppose.

Anyways, I'm working on swapping out light switches to the rocker type and putting in GFCI outlets where necessary. The house was built in '65 and has had various additions, the last in '85. The wiring is a sort of cobbled together nightmare. Many of the boxes I'm opening up don't have enough wire for me to be able to install anything new, especially the larger GFCI receps. Can I just buy some 12g THHN wire and pigtail an extra length of wire? Would standard wire nuts suffice or should I get something more permanent? I don't have a single 15a breaker in the entire house, so 12g would be the right answer I would suppose?

Also, what are the general thoughts on the whole 60C vs 90C for flush mount lights? I put up an LED flush mount in the bathroom that says it needs 90C. I can't tell what sort of wire goes to it, but I'm assuming it's standard NM. I've only found one length of NM-B in the house and I suspect it's for the heat pump which was installed in '04. I've talked with an electrician I work with and he just sort of said EH to the whole thing and doesn't think it's a big deal. I'm inclined to believe him. I cannot believe that an old incandescent flush mount fixture from the '80's somehow produces less heat than a new LED one. I suspect it's more of a CYA thing for the manufactures, but I don't know shit.
 
re: receptacles - when you say there's not enough wire, are you saying they just cut them really short so there's not enough to work wit hand reach to the terminals on teh new switches?
If you're just replacin gswitches (take off old one, put on new) then I don't see where a problem arises, if it worked for the old, should work for the new, unless the screw terminals are in weird places.
Yes, if you need longer wires you can just add a jumper of THHN or NMB taken out of the jacket. Just use a regular wire nut to join them. Note there are different size and color wire nuts for different total gauge of wire going into it (e.g. smaller ones for just 2 14ga, big ones for like 4-5 14s or 3 12s etc).
No 15a breakers - you mean all 20a? Yes, use at least 12g wire. Also be sure then that your new switches and outlets are 20a rated. Frankly I just always use 12ga wire now when running new lengths even if its on a 15ga just for the extra insurance and options later.

No real opinion on the 60 vs 90 thing besides yeah probably a CYA issue.
 
Why are you putting GFCI outlets in anyway??


Don't put pigtails inside the boxes for the outlets.

Leave them as is and just put a GFCI breaker on the circuit in the panel.

Put the GFCI on the first outlet in the circuit and you are covered for the whole circuit.
 
rockcity said:
Why are you putting GFCI outlets in anyway??

Don't put pigtails inside the boxes for the outlets.

Leave them as is and just put a GFCI breaker on the circuit in the panel.

Put the GFCI on the first outlet in the circuit and you are covered for the whole circuit.
Click to expand...

This is probably what I will end up doing. I can't figure out where half the circuits go. Something that turns off receptacles in the bedroom also turns off the overhead lights in the carport. I can't get a standard GFCI in the box I really need it in anyways, it's got too much crap going on inside.

I ended up just buying 50 feet of NM-B.
 
rockcity said:
Leave them as is and just put a GFCI breaker on the circuit in the panel.
Click to expand...

I'm betting the existing wire is only two conductor, without a ground. If that's the case, can't use GFCI breakers.

If there's a device already there, I don't understand why you can't wire up a new one. A GFCI in place of a standard receptacle needs about 3/4 to 1" less conductor to wire it up. It's going to be a pain in the ass to get three yellow wire nuts, a pigtail, and a GFCI in a standard depth box.
 
shawn said:
I'm betting the existing wire is only two conductor, without a ground. If that's the case, can't use GFCI breakers.

If there's a device already there, I don't understand why you can't wire up a new one. A GFCI in place of a standard receptacle needs about 3/4 to 1" less conductor to wire it up. It's going to be a pain in the ass to get three yellow wire nuts, a pigtail, and a GFCI in a standard depth box.
Click to expand...

Actually they have grounds. I find it odd because this area of the house is most likely original 1965 and I had thought grounded receps were required in like 75?

I think I just bought a shitty GFCI. I don't have enough wire to get the loop around the mounting screws. I gave up on it and will just put a standard recep back in. It's a really old box with the two posts horizontally across so it's tough to fit anything in there as it is.
 
Buy a Leviton or something and use the holes on the back instead of the screw posts. If you're going to use the screw posts, you need a good screwdriver and a pair of linemans pliers. I like Greenlee.
 
Macdaddy4738 said:
I find it odd because this area of the house is most likely original 1965 and I had thought grounded receps were required in like 75?
Click to expand...

Our 1942 house was grounded throughout when new, our 1962 house only had ground conductors where required (wet receps, refrigerator, etc).
 
shawn said:
Buy a Leviton or something and use the holes on the back instead of the screw posts. If you're going to use the screw posts, you need a good screwdriver and a pair of linemans pliers. I like Greenlee.
Click to expand...
I bought Eaton because that was the only gray ones there. I forgot how awful the last Eaton I bought was.
 
shawn said:
Buy a Leviton or something and use the holes on the back instead of the screw posts.
Click to expand...

I'm going to respectfully and completely disagree with that. Backstabbed wires usually loosen up over time as the spring work hardens and loses tension, have very little surface area because of the spring contact design, and have generally higher resistance because of that. If you're going to use holes on the back, make sure they are the type that clamps the wire when the screw is tightened. If it's the standard spring-type back hole, spend the extra time and use the screws instead. I don't get paid by the hour to rewire my own house, so I can spend the time to use the more reliable connection method.

For an example, our previous house in VA had all of the outlets and switches backstabbed, and it was built in 91 (we sold it in 2005 or 2006). Every time the vacuum or something like that was turned on, all of the lights would dip in brightness and stay dim. I spent a few hours and switched all of the connections in the house to the screw terminals, without replacing a single outlet or switch, and it completely cured the problem. The lights would then just barely flicker during vacuum start and would then return to full brightness while the vacuum was on.

Our current house apparently had the walls originally painted with a spray gun (after the wires were stripped..?), then had the wires backstabbed. So yes, painted copper stabbed into a spring terminal. I've been replacing all of the outlets and switches as we paint the rooms, and almost every wire swivels in the spring terminal and has exactly 3 nicks in the paint on the copper where the spring terminals bit into the wire. I really can't believe they're the original outlets from 1990, but they seem to be.

My EE/PE dad (who was later a general contractor and did expert witness work) used to say that he was surprised that more home electrical fires didn't start because of backstabbed terminals.
 
Fabrik8 said:
I'm going to respectfully and completely disagree with that. Backstabbed wires usually loosen up over time as the spring work hardens and loses tension, have very little surface area because of the spring contact design, and have generally higher resistance because of that. If you're going to use holes on the back, make sure they are the type that clamps the wire when the screw is tightened. If it's the standard spring-type back hole, spend the extra time and use the screws instead. I don't get paid by the hour to rewire my own house, so I can spend the time to use the more reliable connection method.
Click to expand...

Leviton GFCIs clamp the wire when you tighten the screw. No spring clip.
 
My neighbors having problems with the GFI receptacle in her garage. Pulled it apart and could tell the wire had been sparking on the slide in terminal. Replaced it with a new GFI and put it on the screws.
 
Fabrik8 said:
Ah, perfect then. I like those. The Leviton Decora outlets I've been using don't have those, they're the spring backstab. Nice looking though.
Click to expand...

All right, you made me go and look. The one I used the other day was a Cooper. The screw goes into a plate that sits alongside the holes on the back. Push in on the screw to move the plate out of the way, then slip the wire in and tighten it. Easy peasy. The Leviton has a loose piece of plate that sits under the screw head. One edge is eased up to make a place for the wire to slide in, but they aren't as easy to use as the Cooper. Both have good mechanical connections, though.

On a regular duplex receptacle, I put a J bend in the wire and put it under the screw head. There's usually a bit more real estate to work with when getting the wire in place under the screw, and usually more space alongside the receptacle to minimize worries about the side screws shorting against a metal box.
 
I have made good money replacing back-stabbed switches & outlets in brand new houses.

I always pigtail my normal outlets & wrap the wire around the terminals.....but sometimes when adding/replacing GFCI, you have to use the compression style terminations on the outlet. Still, this is FAR better/safer than the "stabs".
 
wow, this is the first I've heard of the backstabbed switches being a "bad" idea, but I believe it. My house is 10 years old, and I've been replacing them as they go. What has been happening to mine is that the bottom/rear corner plastic has been cracking off, then the screw and contact plate falls into the box, and the switch stops working. Sometimes a sizzle can be heard before complete failure, and I'll swap it out beforehand. I attributed this to a design flaw in one particular brand/model switch. Bought a bulkload of Leviton switched from amazon to swap in.
 
Back
Top