House Upgrade Costs?

Lurch830

messin' with sasquatch
Joined
Mar 1, 2007
Location
Wilton & Albemarle, NC
So I found a house I'll be putting an offer in on located near Garner, NC and it needs a few things. With the wide range of resources on NC4x4, I thought what better place to ask. I'd like to put a privacy fence in & a vapor barrier in the crawl space or seal it completely.

The privacy fence would be ~300 feet long and only have three sides (if that makes a difference). I'm debating between wood & plastic/aluminum with a single walk-through gate. Anybody have an idea how much either/both would cost?

The vapor barrier/seal would be under a ~1,400 sq. ft. house and the crawl space is ~2 feet tall (if that makes a difference). Any ideas on cost?

Thanks,
Brandon
 
Vapor barrier only. $600. Closed crawl space with dehumidifier and upgraded vapor barrier. $3100. Does not include large amount of debris removal, access door repairs or replacement and some other unusual conditions
 
Vapor barrier only. $600. Closed crawl space with dehumidifier and upgraded vapor barrier. $3100. Does not include large amount of debris removal, access door repairs or replacement and some other unusual conditions
Answers like this are exactly why I asked NC4x4...thanks!
Follow-up questions, is the closed crawl space worth it? What are the advantages? I'm guessing no mold/mildew & easier/cheaper to heat and cool home?
 
Besides maintaining moisture levels in crawl space to prevent mold growth that can deteriorate wood it can lower indoor humidity levels, improve R value of floor and duct insulation, save energy by stabilizing temperatures in crawl space to around 68 degrees year round, and reduce air infiltration in to house from crawl space. Energy savings claims are up to 15% but that depends on age and condition of house.
 
My last house (2300ish sq/ft) I did a vapor barrier and thermal/automated vents, cost me $2800...wanna say $800 in the barrier and $1000 in the vents, the rest was labor. Looking at fences right now for my current house. 301' with a man gate and a 6' gate, with quotes I'm getting would be $10-11/ft for 4' chain link on up to $25/ft for wrought iron, and anywhere in between. I'd imagine plastic would be cheaper.
 
My last house (2300ish sq/ft) I did a vapor barrier and thermal/automated vents, cost me $2800...wanna say $800 in the barrier and $1000 in the vents, the rest was labor. Looking at fences right now for my current house. 301' with a man gate and a 6' gate, with quotes I'm getting would be $10-11/ft for 4' chain link on up to $25/ft for wrought iron, and anywhere in between. I'd imagine plastic would be cheaper.
for a good quality plastic fence its going to be close to 20-25 depending on style from what ive seen.
 
Valid...guess I was thinking more like the white pickets out in front of Lowe's/WalMart.

If you want pickets you can probably do it cheaper I was wanting full privacy fence with zero maintenance. To me I'd rather pay a little more up front then having to paint it every few years


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If you want pickets you can probably do it cheaper I was wanting full privacy fence with zero maintenance. To me I'd rather pay a little more up front then having to paint it every few years


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This is exactly what I'm looking for...full privacy to cancel some road noise & zero maintenance because I've got better things to do!
 
You will want at least 2 gates, one on each side of the house. It's a pain in the ass to walk all the way around.
I agree...I have 2 gates in my privacy fence now (1 walk-through, 1 drive-through). But with the layout of this property, I wouldn't be fully closing off one side so I'm thinking back, side & front (with gate) & leave the other side open for the existing driveway/cedar trees.
 
How agressive you get in adressing the crawlspace is dependent on current humidity level averages.
Cheat code:
If the ground is dry and dusty, you can get by with just a vapor barrier of 6mil or equivalent. You can by 1000sqft rolls and even 2000sqft rolls from Lowes. Material cost on that sqft should be $200 or in that area. Factor in that between overlap and running a few inches up each exterior wall will eat up about 25% of the material overall. The pre-estimates mentioned already are spot-on.

Wet(tish) crawlspace with a light mildew smell to it would need extra modes of air movement added and a designated breaker wured in to accomodate.

Very dank, moldy and complete ground saturation is a disaster waiting to happen. Most won't notice until there's odors in the house and in extreme conditions the hardwood floors will buckle for seemingly no reason. Basically in a nutshell, you're experiencing dewpoint in a contained area for several hours within day. Usually water intrusion from outside source is the culprit here but so could be plumbing leaks combined with just the right temperature. This is where a true encapsulation comes in. I started doing these about 11 years ago with a company based out of Davidson NC that was backed by a material company out of Colorado (Basement systems) that helped pioneer encapsulation in the Carolinas. Personally ive trained two other companies how to install it, one of them later called me out of the blue and hired my co-worker and I sight unseen the second they found out we were available to the highest bidder. Doorways are doorways. Full encapsulation includes a 20 mil floor liner, 12mil wall and pilar held by mechanical fasteners, fully covered but left 4" down from sill plate for termite inspection, and sealed together with caulk and 4" white vapor bond tape. Vents will be completely sealed retaining an appropriate R value and humidity will be controlled by a dehumidifier set at 55% after the mold issue is resolved and floor insulation is removed and disposed of. Insulation is then made unnecessary because what has happened is the crawlspace has been made part of the conditioned living area and kept at low humidity by use of a dehumidifier and conditioned by residual heat/cooling from the duct system (in which will never be 100% sealed anyways. 85% best case scenario). An encapsulation IS the absolute best way to use every bit of this resource otherwise gone to waste.

Let's hope it's dry.
 
How agressive you get in adressing the crawlspace is dependent on current humidity level averages.
Cheat code:
If the ground is dry and dusty, you can get by with just a vapor barrier of 6mil or equivalent. You can by 1000sqft rolls and even 2000sqft rolls from Lowes. Material cost on that sqft should be $200 or in that area. Factor in that between overlap and running a few inches up each exterior wall will eat up about 25% of the material overall. The pre-estimates mentioned already are spot-on.

Wet(tish) crawlspace with a light mildew smell to it would need extra modes of air movement added and a designated breaker wured in to accomodate.

Very dank, moldy and complete ground saturation is a disaster waiting to happen. Most won't notice until there's odors in the house and in extreme conditions the hardwood floors will buckle for seemingly no reason. Basically in a nutshell, you're experiencing dewpoint in a contained area for several hours within day. Usually water intrusion from outside source is the culprit here but so could be plumbing leaks combined with just the right temperature. This is where a true encapsulation comes in. I started doing these about 11 years ago with a company based out of Davidson NC that was backed by a material company out of Colorado (Basement systems) that helped pioneer encapsulation in the Carolinas. Personally ive trained two other companies how to install it, one of them later called me out of the blue and hired my co-worker and I sight unseen the second they found out we were available to the highest bidder. Doorways are doorways. Full encapsulation includes a 20 mil floor liner, 12mil wall and pilar held by mechanical fasteners, fully covered but left 4" down from sill plate for termite inspection, and sealed together with caulk and 4" white vapor bond tape. Vents will be completely sealed retaining an appropriate R value and humidity will be controlled by a dehumidifier set at 55% after the mold issue is resolved and floor insulation is removed and disposed of. Insulation is then made unnecessary because what has happened is the crawlspace has been made part of the conditioned living area and kept at low humidity by use of a dehumidifier and conditioned by residual heat/cooling from the duct system (in which will never be 100% sealed anyways. 85% best case scenario). An encapsulation IS the absolute best way to use every bit of this resource otherwise gone to waste.

Let's hope it's dry.



It's not necessary to use 20/12 mil for the vapor barrier, when converting to a closed crawlspace, for the system to be efficient and effective.

There is no ROA on anything thicker than 6 mil plastic unless the reason for sealing the seams is to cover up and seal out a high concentration of mold on the ground surface.

Even with a 100% + vapor barrier and forced air ventilation of a crawlspace, there can still be a wood moisture problem due to humid air and cool crawlspace temperatures.

The biggest payback of the vapor barrier on the walls is during the cold winter when the brick curtain wall gets cold and drops below the dew point.

It's also important to get the vapor barrier high enough on the walls to keep any water intrusion from severe weather events to enter the crawlspace under the vapor barrier.

Data supports that meeting the NC code requirement of 12" min overlap on all seams is sufficient for moisture control without sealing such seams, as long as there is adequate mechanical fasteners holding the seams to the soil. This prevents the vapor barrier from being disturbed during normal maintenance and inspection of the space.

The common guideline for crawlspace moisture is wood moisture content, not relative humidity.


Increased ventilation doesn't work in our environment, and can accelerate mold growth leading to wood decay, especially when localized crawlspace temperatures are below their dew point temps.

Sandy and or dry soil also has a very small impact on crawlspace moisture. Again the problem is moisture laden air entering the crawlspace with areas below their dew point condensing moisture.

Wood over 19% moisture content is a concern.

Over 21% MC can grow the type of mold that eats the wood structure. This is commonly referred to as "rot". There is no such thing as "dry rot". The mold that eats the structure of the wood is commonly called "brown mold" and is a blend of several fungi.

Under 17% moisture content is great.

The mold that grows on the wood with moisture contents from 17-19% lives on the surface, and mainly consumes the sap and not the wood structure.

Water intrusion is a major concern as it helps to supply humidity to the crawlspace, although in very very very little amounts. This is due to having very little energy to cause evaporation and allow the wood to soak any of that up. The major concern with bulk water intrusion is erosion and undermining the foundation.

The main is humid air from our climate.

Once the crawlspace is sealed and converted to a closed type, the floor insulation is pointless as the temps above and below the floor are nearly identical and the air mass itself acts as insulation.

Fiberglass insulation looses 36% of its R value when the moisture content is raised 1.5%.

Yes I know, some of that is contradictory to the IBC but is the problem we face with our humid climate in the SE.

A lot of variables go into it, but there are energy savings averaging 15% by converting to a closed crawlspace and running the correct size dehumidifier for your crawlspace.

Feel free to pm or call me about any specific questions. I'll be glad to help any way I can. I've been working in crawlspaces in eastern NC part time since 1999, and full time from 2009 to today. We convert roughly 150 houses a year to the closed type with a dehumidifier.
 
Ok, theres product install standards tgat we always met and going back to jobs from over a decade ago, I can tell you that vapor barrier is garbage. Plastic deteriorates after time. It also gets destroyed by animals and people moving across it. All it takes is a separated seam or punctured and its useless.
A 20/12 is from what I know from seeing it time and time again the only thing guaranteed to last for 15 years and to quote a salesman from Basement Systems, "there's no reason it shouldn't last 40".

Moisture can also travel up cinder block walls up to 13".

Here's the big kicker. Is a vaper barrier flood proof? Does it deter ground water depths of 1/4" all the way up to a foot deep and not allow a drop to get on top of it? Probably not. Will a perfectly installed 20/12? Yes. I've done it. In walk down basement where a homeowner didnt pay for a sump or it malfunctioned. Reverse pool liner is essentially what it is.
 
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Ok, theres product install standards tgat we always met and going back to jobs from over a decade ago, I can tell you that vapor barrier is garbage. Plastic deteriorates after time. It also gets destroyed by animals and people moving across it. All it takes is a separated seam or punctured and its useless.
A 20/12 is from what I know from seeing it time and time again the only thing guaranteed to last for 15 years and to quote a salesman from Basement Systems, "there's no reason it shouldn't last 40".

Moisture can also travel up cinder block walls up to 13".

Here's the big kicker. Is a vaper barrier flood proof? Does it deter ground water depths of 1/4" all the way up to a foot deep and not allow a drop to get on top of it? Probably not. Will a perfectly installed 20/12? Yes. I've done it. In walk down basement where a homeowner didnt pay for a sump or it malfunctioned. Reverse pool liner is essentially what it is.

We have fully intact 6 mil vapor barriers from 1999.

Ultraviolet light is what degrades Vapor barriers.

If you do a quality job sealing the foundation walls, UV light and animal entry isn’t an issue.

Of course the people making 12/20 mil have “clever” marketing strategies. Look at the perm rates... compare the perm ratings to the product cost and increased labor cost to install. The ROA isn’t there.

For 90% of the crawlspaces and homeowners, 12/20 mil plastic is not the best when considering all aspects. The cost is too high for what is achieved.

This isn’t a pissing contest, and I’m not arguing. I’m just pointing out that there is no ROA on what you suggested, and there are proven other ways that keep total costs down and are proven to control crawlspace moisture.


During a flood, yes water can get between the overlapping plastic and then it can also run out of the same overlaps when the water recedes.

If it’s installed properly, it will.

The bulk ground water during a flood event isn’t a concern to crawlspace wood moisture content unless it actually touches the wood structure. There isn’t enough energy to cause evaporation and transport that moisture vapor to the wood.
 
Disclaimer: full encapsulation is a luxury/specialty market for people who like nice things to last a long time. If you're the type of person who spends the extra money on say, 35 year shingles rather than a 15 year shingle, this may be for you. Keeping moisture from damaging your largest investment is the heart and soul of this system. Durable, usable storage is a benefit as well.
In the early days when Pure Home Dynamics shined as the premiere crawlspace encapsulation company in the southeast, our prices were steady. Years ago shortly after I trained Drypro on how to install this correctly, shortly after that is when the salesman and half owner of PHD decided to take his millions of dollars and bail and went to work as a salesman for ****** who was our only competition. A few years later he declared bankruptsy because he could not get over how much of a paycut he had to endure. I will leave his name out. Since then, fly by night companies spring up everywhere and drive the quality and profit way down to crap. We never taught them everything though. I despise crawling under houses and avoid doing it, but my work reputation procedes me.

TOOLS OF THE TRADE
First, here's a true 6 mil plastic and fastener pin. Typically cut with a box cutter but you can tear by hand. If you think for one second companies will not try to slip in 4 mil on you hoping you won't notice, think again. Metal rusts when driven into the ground.
20170923_083240.jpg


These are the tools of the trade on a true encapsulation. Hammer drill with 1/4" Ansi bit and 1/4"x1 button caps used to secure the 12 mil wall and pilars to cinder block and/or red brick exterior walls every 3'. Construction adhesive field tested to adhere the best to material and brick. Scissors. I defy you to tear any of it by hand. 4" white vapor bond tape that is so adhesive you can actually tape material together under water.
20170923_083011.jpg


Here's some examples of materials used in encapsulation. Color coded. Black or pink back is 12 mil. Blue back is 16 and white back in 20. This is the real deal and its extremely durable. You can see the fiber reinforment in it. Also shown is 1" thick foam board field cut to block crawsplace vents.
20170923_083137.jpg


Here is a piece of 12 mil that I cut from my own crawsplace this morning showing the side that has been in contact with with rich earth for the last 10 years. Survived many floods and has withstood door traffic and random storage items drug across it. Unscathed. Can you imagine what a 20mil will do?
20170923_083232.jpg


Here's two other examples of what's commonly seen under houses. The blue is a roughly 16mil material originally for brick encapsulant to repel water intrusion on subterranean dwellings. It's not fiber reinforced and tape does not adhere to it as well as with the above. I don't like it. The other is offered by Dry dog barriers. Its....ok.
20170923_083206.jpg


Before I get in trouble,

Disclaimer #
I AM NOT A VENDOR. PHD no longer exists. We never once advertised because we never had to. Word of mouth and homeowner testimonials made us millions. Or... atleast the owners.

Disclaimer #3.
There is no 100% correct way to install it technically, and it's all based on location and specific issues needing to be adressed. I can only tell what i know first hand works.

-Aprilaire is the only dehu that is worth a crap and I will even bother to install.
-Zohler sump pump is the way to go.
-When we installed it, we would remove our shoes and wear only white socks under the house to show the homeowner just how clean we could make even the nastiest crawlspace by the time we finished an encapsulation.
-I hate crawling under houses.
-Have fun with it. I've moved into different fields.
 
We have fully intact 6 mil vapor barriers from 1999.

Ultraviolet light is what degrades Vapor barriers.

If you do a quality job sealing the foundation walls, UV light and animal entry isn’t an issue.

Of course the people making 12/20 mil have “clever” marketing strategies. Look at the perm rates... compare the perm ratings to the product cost and increased labor cost to install. The ROA isn’t there.

For 90% of the crawlspaces and homeowners, 12/20 mil plastic is not the best when considering all aspects. The cost is too high for what is achieved.

This isn’t a pissing contest, and I’m not arguing. I’m just pointing out that there is no ROA on what you suggested, and there are proven other ways that keep total costs down and are proven to control crawlspace moisture.


During a flood, yes water can get between the overlapping plastic and then it can also run out of the same overlaps when the water recedes.

If it’s installed properly, it will.

The bulk ground water during a flood event isn’t a concern to crawlspace wood moisture content unless it actually touches the wood structure. There isn’t enough energy to cause evaporation and transport that moisture vapor to the wood.
I fully understand that and got ya covered. ;):beer: No pissung contest in any way shape or form. I respect your knowledge 1 billion percent and a huge thanks for sharing sir!
 
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Aprilaire is terrible for crawlspace use honestly. Unless their design has changed significantly,

The static pressure when installed free standing and not attached to ductwork prevents the condensate drain from functioning properly.

Also why it is noisy. It moves the air far too fast and too much cfm. However with 8’ of ducting on either end, the drain will Work, yet still noisy.

Honeywell is where it’s at.

Generally For most houses, if sealed properly, 65 pints up to 3500 sq ft of crawlspace is adequate. * if the foundation walls are air sealed correctly.

Anything larger than that is a waste of $$$ long term. Not only bc of cost to run, but upfront cost as well.

As far as 6 mil vs 12/20 bla bla bla. Round and round we go.

Again, we have crawlspaces with 6 mil vapor barriers installed in 99/00 with metal staples securing the barrier, that are still completely intact, with no noticeable degradation.

The biggest enemy to the vapor barrier is exterminators tearing it up, needing to retreat the crawlspace for termites.

The next biggest is from renovation construction such as an addition, tearing it up while working.


Only time 12/20 mil is necessary is for high traffic crawlspaces, OR when trying seal off unusually high concentrations of ground based mold.

12/20 mil VB is what 3x the cost of a 6mil?

If someone is using a box cutter to install, they are a joke.

Any polyiso board used to seal foundation vents needs to have foil facing on both sides to keep the animals from chewing through it.

Honestly, my experience is probably different than everyone else, bc I install these products daily.

I do a few steps during install that everyone else doesn’t, that helps protect my VB.

I remove all debris from soil. Everything. Acorns, brick chips, cracker wrappers, drink bottles, rocks, sticks, roots. Everything.

Next I smooth the dirt/sand/clay to prep it for the VB. Then ensures crawling and working in the space doesn’t harm the VB.

I make sure the VB is pulled taught, adequately cut, overlapped, and fastened down. No dirt is exposed anywhere.

This ensures that the VB doesn’t bunch or move when someone crawls across it.

A lot of these reason are as to why my vapor barriers last much longer than others, yet I can still save the homeowner cost over the 12/20 mil, even with the additional prep time and attention to detail.

My point still remains that the VB argument is still a very small item in magnitude compared to adequate wall air sealing, to controlling crawlspace moisture.
 
Props to you for doing it correctly and caring about the longterm.
Thanks for the pointers on Honeywell and i will look into it. I'd be lying if I said that I still don't capitolize on the install experience I gained. I don't keep the materials around because I don't know where the trash can is. :D
The new revamp version of Aprilaire is far better than the old.
Yes, our market was crawlspaces that nobody else would even touch and our technique and material is reserved primarily for the worst of the worst and added as an addition to a complete mold remediation guaranteed to the extent of the chemical warranty and the material as well. 35 years material and labor for repair is still our code of valor and we honor it.
One can't assume that because every minute procedural step I did not cover here is not included. I've been bit by sharing to much. ;)
And... The old saying "don't reinvent the wheel" burns me to the core. Regardless of what's been done for years, there is always a better way. Innovation over immitation is something I live by. Redundancy and fear of the unknown is something i always try to break people of. And happy trails.
 
Had a fence installed summer of 2015. It was 325 feet of 4' high black vinyl chain link with 3 4x4 gates and 1 12' double gate. Also included aluminum tension wire at the bottom. It was $3,500.

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Interesting about using no insulation at all with a sealed CS. On my current build, I have two choices....crawl is lined ( 10/12), no vents, planning to run dehumidifier. No a/c/heat vent into crawl. Insulation contractor will do standard f/g batts under floor as normal, or over 4k extra to do foam board (2" foil backed) on crawlspace walls, and skip the floor insulation. But, what y'all are saying is no insulation at all??? I knew that temps would be stabilized...but figured SOME insulation has to be there. Comments?

@Mac5005 @XJsavage

edit: corrected mils and foam "
 
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I had the fellas to put in some French drain lines before putting liners in. Had all the insulation removed. Not sure of the thickness, but it's white and feels like rubber. Foam boards are on anything that is cement. And the white liner is glued together on everything.

The a/c in crawl space warms it up. Not sure of the model humidifier, but it's big and noisy, however, I don't hear it in the house. There's a drain at the lowest part of the ground that goes outside and to the back yard. I take my shoes off before going under there now. The downstairs wood floors feel so much better now. Green frog did ours. Not sure of his reputation, but I'm a happy customer.

Think it took 6 days to do. Between 4-6 dudes working all day.
 
I did crawl space and structural repair for two years back in the recession. My experience is, a well built house with money spent on foundation walls getting framing up away from the ground, and proper and adequate ventilation and vb are plenty sufficient. And especially if there is 2' of crawl all around the foundation. Xjsavage put it well.
In my opinion, encapsulation is a solution for a poorly built house and special circumstances only (highly allergies). 90 percent of the houses I encountered with problems could be/were fixed with a French drain, regrading exterior, or adding vents and or fans. I guess if you like warm/cold floors then spend the 3k. My thoughts are will your HVAC handle the extra area and is it worth it. Probably not. Houses are built with a crawl space for a reason. Easier to plumb or replace structural timber from underneath, along with other benefits. Unless you have allergen problems with your kids, don't spend the money. Or if there is a moisture problem fix it from the outside if at all possible

Since you are are buying, obviously have all your inspections done and do your due diligence. And make a wise decision from there.

And you should also get a survey done, especially before you build a fence, just factor that into costs.
 
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