I need help with a Graduation Project.

[Slenderman]

Hello my name is Daniel Queen. I'm 16 years old and I'm currently a junior at independence high school in Charlotte.
The topic i have chosen for my graduation project is "The negative effect of ethanol on older and small engines."
My teacher said i can use this website and create my own thread, so i will use it a lot.
So if you could please help me with this topic i would greatly appreciate it.

Daniel Queen

 

[RHSCTJ]

What kind of help are you looking for? I don't have much knowledge on the subject but some experience.

 

[mbalbritton]

You might rethink the topic of your project to "The effects of ethanol on older and small engines" that way you leave leave yourself more open to pros and cons and show results that then point you to whether or not it's a good thing or bad.

I personally don't think it's good for older/small engines that aren't equipped for ethanol, but my experience is that it dries out rubber/vinyl and leads to premature failure. I've heard it destroys other materials but I don't know for certain so I won't say.

 

[GotWood]

I have had 2 lawn mowers succumb to the effects of ethanol. Both had the bowls on the carburetor rust through and leak. I was told by the service center both times that that was the cause.

 

[R Q]

Hey y'all, Daniel is my son. Ya think he would look at all of the melted fuel filters, destroyed carburetors, and rotted fuel lines on my many pieces of lawn equipment, but NO! dad doesn't know anything!
J/K! He knows about this crap because of all of the issues I have had when using ethanol fuel. I buy only ethanol-free "labeled" fuel but every now and then get a bad batch... Like the one that ruined a brand new motor on a shrub trimmer last week.

 

[BrianGreen]

Hope this can help you out.

I bought a John Deere lawn mower back in 2009. I used 87 octane gas that had ethanol in it. A couple times that year, I had to take the bowl (plastic) off the carb because the engine wasnt getting fuel. When I removed the bowl (very carefully so I could see what was clogging it), there was a small droplet of water in the bottom. That droplet of water was too large to go thru the needle valve, thus not allowing fuel to enter the carb. After having to do this a couple times, I started researching why this was happening. In my research, I found that 93 octane gas dosent have as much ethanol or any in it. Since then, I have switched to running only 93 octane gas in all of my small engines (lawn mower, blower, chainsaw, edger, weedeater).

Some of the smarter people on here might be able to clarify this a little bit better, but from what I found out, the ethanol will absorb water.


BTW, If you think about joining the military when you turn 17, let me know. Ill hook you up.

 

[trailhugger]

Welcome, Daniel! Sounds like you are already getting some good information. Please keep this thread updated with photos and your project's progress!

 

[Hurley]

I'm sure you need to have some proof other than some opinionated posts from random people on the internet....

I would suggest this:

• set up an experiment to test the effects of ethanol fuel versus regular (you can get non-ethanol 93 octane around)
• maybe 'rig' up some test sets with fuel hoses/tanks/carburetors, or...
• if you have enough resources, two cheap identical lawnmowers that have never been run before - fill them up and let them sit for a month or so, then document their performance after the testing period.

 

[77GreenMachine]

I have a large gas powered air compressor in one of my company box trucks. If the guys don't put 93 in it, it runs like crap. It has made the rubber seals everywhere gas related go to crap. We run 93+ StaBil and its much better.

Maybe go to Ace or similar hardware store and see if they will allow you to use two small engines for the testing mentioned above, after agreeing to return them after testing. Along with a report of your findings.

Your sales pitch to them, is that after this they will be able to better inform their customers on the importance of running better fuel and maybe using additives to help the life of the engine. Ace usually likes to help young people who are doing something good like this. I would think you can find someone to help you.

 

[BigClay]

If I am not mistaked, when I bought my new sthil back pack blower (I bought it from a licensed Stihl dealer), I was told I must run ethanol free fuel through it, and if I ever had a warranty issue arise, the first thing they would look for was to see if I had been running gas with ethanol in it.

 

[R Q]

Higher

Hope this can help you out.

I bought a John Deere lawn mower back in 2009. I used 87 octane gas that had ethanol in it. A couple times that year, I had to take the bowl (plastic) off the carb because the engine wasnt getting fuel. When I removed the bowl (very carefully so I could see what was clogging it), there was a small droplet of water in the bottom. That droplet of water was too large to go thru the needle valve, thus not allowing fuel to enter the carb. After having to do this a couple times, I started researching why this was happening. In my research, I found that 93 octane gas dosent have as much ethanol or any in it. Since then, I have switched to running only 93 octane gas in all of my small engines (lawn mower, blower, chainsaw, edger, weedeater).

Some of the smarter people on here might be able to clarify this a little bit better, but from what I found out, the ethanol will absorb water.


BTW, If you think about joining the military when you turn 17, let me know. Ill hook you up.

higher octane fuels do have less ethanol because they are more refined and the added ethanol won't allow the octane rating to increase so they have to use less

 

[R Q]

If I am not mistaked, when I bought my new sthil back pack blower (I bought it from a licensed Stihl dealer), I was told I must run ethanol free fuel through it, and if I ever had a warranty issue arise, the first thing they would look for was to see if I had been running gas with ethanol in it.

This is partially true. My supplier did warranty the ruined shrub trimmer motor that I had just bought two weeks prior but did note that it had 10% ethanol in the fuel. I've actually had them test my fuel so they know I try to use non ethanol fuel plus I spend several thousand bucks a year there so they covered it.
I had just bought fuel from a different station that was supposed to be ethanol free but it was not

 

[GCncsuHD]

Hope this can help you out.

I bought a John Deere lawn mower back in 2009. I used 87 octane gas that had ethanol in it. A couple times that year, I had to take the bowl (plastic) off the carb because the engine wasnt getting fuel. When I removed the bowl (very carefully so I could see what was clogging it), there was a small droplet of water in the bottom. That droplet of water was too large to go thru the needle valve, thus not allowing fuel to enter the carb. After having to do this a couple times, I started researching why this was happening. In my research, I found that 93 octane gas dosent have as much ethanol or any in it. Since then, I have switched to running only 93 octane gas in all of my small engines (lawn mower, blower, chainsaw, edger, weedeater).

Some of the smarter people on here might be able to clarify this a little bit better, but from what I found out, the ethanol will absorb water.


BTW, If you think about joining the military when you turn 17, let me know. Ill hook you up.

Ethanol is miscible with water, meaning it will readily mix (think varying proofs of alcohol, mixed drinks, etc). Gasoline is not. If you mix water with gasoline it will cause the gasoline to float to the top, eventually the fuel pickup will pickup nothing but water and the engine will stop running. Ethanol on the other hand will mix with the water, allowing it to get through in small amounts, where it can sit around and cause corrosion to unprotected metals. The other issue is that the lower boiling point of the ethanol causes it to evaporate faster, cooling the intake charge much more, and making it more likely to freeze up the carburetor.

Higher

higher octane fuels do have less ethanol because they are more refined and the added ethanol won't allow the octane rating to increase so they have to use less

The whole point of putting ethanol in gasoline mixes, is that it is an additive that will boost the octane rating (well primarily the fact that it is "renewable" and "clean", but the octane boost feature is what provides the functional reasoning for use as an additive). Basically, the octane rating system works like this: 100% Iso-octane= Octane 100. 87% Iso-octane and 13% Heptane= Octane 87. That doesn't mean the fuel you pump into your car has that mixture, just that it performs like a fuel of that mixture. You can have a 84% Iso-octane and 16% Heptane mixture, resulting in an octane rating of 84, then put additives in it, such as Ethanol to raise it's effective Octane rating to 87, 89, or 93. The difference is many stations market their 93 as "premium" with other additives and detergents in it, so not as much of the ethanol is required. The amount of ethanol in your fuel required to bring it up to the advertised octane rating depends on the quality of stock they started with, hence the "up to 10%" signs. Ethanol itself has an octane rating of a little over 99.

As far as damage, as others have mentioned, most damage is a result of corrosion from the water eating away at unprotected metals in the fuel system, and the eating away at seals and hoses that are not compatible. Very little if any engine damage ever occurs as a result of the ethanol itself, unless it is a result of the damaged fuel system, although if ran way rich on a larger ethanol ratio, it can be more susceptible to cylinder wash and cause compression loss or contaminate the oil, but that is not an issue on a properly tuned engine.

 

[Hurley]

to extend GC's post - you may be better suited to do a test where you add water to fuel from various suppliers and monitor the results. (I would do that before trying to test engines/deterioration - much faster results)

 

[mbalbritton]

Hey y'all, Daniel is my son..

If I am not mistaked, when I bought my new sthil back pack blower (I bought it from a licensed Stihl dealer), I was told I must run ethanol free fuel through it, and if I ever had a warranty issue arise, the first thing they would look for was to see if I had been running gas with ethanol in it.

Stihl is one of our bigger clients. I order to stay in their full warranty you are suppose to run their gas they sell in cans at their dealerships. It's their way of controlling the fuel and no ethanol. but how do they know you've never run anything but their fuel?

 

[snappy]

Stihl is one of our bigger clients. I order to stay in their full warranty you are suppose to run their gas they sell in cans at their dealerships. It's their way of controlling the fuel and no ethanol. but how do they know you've never run anything but their fuel?

They test every machine that comes in for repair. I have one of the shops as my stop. OP if you are near kenersville i cam get you face to face with real world data!

 

[rodney eppes]

I've had some really strange things happen, + been told various things! It's hard to know what is right. First, my boat, that I bought in 07, had been serviced, carbs & fuel pumped cleaned, by a Marine mechanic. Ran great for about 3 weeks, & then died. Took it back, & the mechanic found the entire fuel system, full of black powder! Ethanol,had eaten the Old fuel lines. I have a John Deer rider, 1989 year. It does have a plastic fuel tank, & I changed the fuel filter, 2 years ago, because I never had. None of the fuel lines, or carburetor, have ever been touched, & I run 87 octane! Had a problem with putting old 87 octane gas,in my New Stihl chainsaw. Stihl dealer told me I had ruined it & it had low compression. Both he & my owners manual, say to run 89 octane, & THEIR synthetic fuel oil mix, for warranty. And the Hardware/dealer, sell Star bright-Star*Tron enzyme fuel treatment!. Said to be much better than sta-bil [which he called useless]. After running a heavy mix of the Enzyme fuel treatment, with 93 octane, my "RUNIED" saw, runs just fine! So much for Him. Now, a lot of people say that besides eating up rubber, the reason you can't "store" gas,more that 2-3 weeks, is the ethanol evaporates out, taking the octane with it =dead gas. As for it causing corrosion, [new one on me] Sta-bil, has a new Sta-bil 360,out, & their saying it vaporizes in your tank, coating & protecting it!?? I've run my small engines, out of gas, before storing them, & still have carburetor problems = stuck needle, clogged passages.
More & more, stores are selling Premium ethanol gas. I've also been told that BP s, mid-grade, in SC, is ethanol free > go figure?

 

[ol'Jeeps]

My experience from running methanol (I believe the effects are the same as ethanol) in race cars.

As I remember... (we'll call it all alcohol from here)

Seal and o'rings must be Viton. Most factory stuff is Buna-n. Alcohol eats Buna-n

Any alcohol without a "top lube" additive will not lubricate valves. This leads to burnt valves, unless proper valves are used. (Many late model engines have valves suitable for this because lead free gasoline doesn't lubricate valves either!)

Alcohol,is corrosive. We had to drain out fuel system every week because, left sitting in carburetors and fuel pumps, it will corrode and leave behind a white pasty looking stuff that clogs everything!

Alcohol will attract water. However it also mixes with it. Allowing it to be carried away thru the combustion process. (That is basically all 'dry gas' is) This water in the fuel can, however, speed up corrosion in steel tanks, etc.

Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline. So the engine runs cooler. This allows for adding more timing to an engine without fearing detonation. Adding timing=adding power!

Because alcohol burns so much slower than gasoline it make more power. (Most simply put, gasoline just 'pops' at near top dead center, and the resulting expanding gases push the piston down with decreasing pressure as the piston moves down. Alcohol burns through-out the combustion stroke expanding the gases for a longer period of time thereby sustaining the 'push' on the piston for a greater length of time.)

You will burn almost twice the amount of alcohol as you will gasoline.

Hope I remembered all of this correctly! LOL!

 

[Slenderman]

What kind of help are you looking for? I don't have much knowledge on the subject but some experience.

Tm looking for any information I can cite that will help with my thesis which states "The negative effects of ethanol on older and smaller engines." Anything that deals with fuel injection, fuel pump parts, ignition systems, parts being eaten away, efficiency, power, cost, etc. I need as much information as feasibly possible. The paper should be 8 pages long and I have to create a product, which I have an idea already, to present very soon. The rough draft of my paper is due by march 20th. Product is next year in English IV

 

[ord.sgt.26NC]

BTW, If you think about joining the military when you turn 17, let me know. Ill hook you up.

kind of opportunistic there...

 

[BrianGreen]

kind of opportunistic there...

I need to justify why I am looking at NC4X4 while at work on a gov computer. I have gotten one enlistment from the 4x4 community.

 

[Slenderman]

My experience from running methanol (I believe the effects are the same as ethanol) in race cars.

As I remember... (we'll call it all alcohol from here)

Seal and o'rings must be Viton. Most factory stuff is Buna-n. Alcohol eats Buna-n

Any alcohol without a "top lube" additive will not lubricate valves. This leads to burnt valves, unless proper valves are used. (Many late model engines have valves suitable for this because lead free gasoline doesn't lubricate valves either!)

Alcohol,is corrosive. We had to drain out fuel system every week because, left sitting in carburetors and fuel pumps, it will corrode and leave behind a white pasty looking stuff that clogs everything!

Alcohol will attract water. However it also mixes with it. Allowing it to be carried away thru the combustion process. (That is basically all 'dry gas' is) This water in the fuel can, however, speed up corrosion in steel tanks, etc.

Alcohol burns much cooler than gasoline. So the engine runs cooler. This allows for adding more timing to an engine without fearing detonation. Adding timing=adding power!

Because alcohol burns so much slower than gasoline it make more power. (Most simply put, gasoline just 'pops' at near top dead center, and the resulting expanding gases push the piston down with decreasing pressure as the piston moves down. Alcohol burns through-out the combustion stroke expanding the gases for a longer period of time thereby sustaining the 'push' on the piston for a greater length of time.)

You will burn almost twice the amount of alcohol as you will gasoline.

Hope I remembered all of this correctly! LOL!

your information is very helpful sir thank you very much!

 

[Slenderman]

I have a large gas powered air compressor in one of my company box trucks. If the guys don't put 93 in it, it runs like crap. It has made the rubber seals everywhere gas related go to crap. We run 93+ StaBil and its much better.

Maybe go to Ace or similar hardware store and see if they will allow you to use two small engines for the testing mentioned above, after agreeing to return them after testing. Along with a report of your findings.

Your sales pitch to them, is that after this they will be able to better inform their customers on the importance of running better fuel and maybe using additives to help the life of the engine. Ace usually likes to help young people who are doing something good like this. I would think you can find someone to help you.

i will definitely go with something similar to your idea sir thank you!

 

[Slenderman]

I'm sure you need to have some proof other than some opinionated posts from random people on the internet....

I would suggest this:

• set up an experiment to test the effects of ethanol fuel versus regular (you can get non-ethanol 93 octane around)
• maybe 'rig' up some test sets with fuel hoses/tanks/carburetors, or...
• if you have enough resources, two cheap identical lawnmowers that have never been run before - fill them up and let them sit for a month or so, then document their performance after the testing period.

your reply is welcomed sir. i was planning on obtaining fuel components from non working vecihles and comparing to new components but your idea seems more persuasive.

 

[R Q]

Daniel, I bet Bill and Josh at Interstate could help you out with some bad parts that show the disintegration and distortion of seals, plastic parts etc.,