Independant vs Solid axles Buggy design plans

Kustom Fabrikated

Kustom Fabrikated

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Joined
Oct 29, 2007
Location
Raleigh
I am in the process of starting to design a buggy and was looking for some opinions.

The plans so far are: Street legal, either manual or automatic with reverse pattern manual valvebody. Fuel Injected V8, 1ton axles, possible rear steer, twin-stick, between 35-40s, coilovers, and atleast 12" suspension travel.

Will be used for on-road driving, mud, trails at places like uwharrie and tellico, I would also use it occasionally for beach driving and jumping where ever legal.

I am trying to decide between
IFS and 3-link rear
3-link front and rear
IFS and IRS
Or if you suggest something other than a 3-link I would be interested in how you think it compares to the ones I have listed.
 
IFS/IRS

I can't say that I've seen an IFS/IRS buggy.

You can make a badass IFS/IRS, but it takes a lot of work.
 
Dylan W. said:
Check out the Walker Evans buggy/truck thingy.I cant find the link, but its kinda badarse with the ifs/irs...IIRC!
Click to expand...


It was, until it was sold shortly after built because it didn't compare to the straight axle...

My thoughts are...

If you are asking these questions, maybe you should reconsider building a buggy and buy a used one and change what you don't like/want to fix.
 
The problem is not the difficulty of the build or building it myself if I do go with Independent suspension I will build my own control arms to make it long travel. I have built motorcyle and race car chassis before so I am more concerned with the time than actually being able build it.

The reason that I am asking this is because everyone uses solid axles when they build their buggy. But Independent suspension has proved itself on Hummers, ATVs, and Sand Rails. I guess part of the reason of me thinking about this is because I have not seen anyone else build one, another reason is that I like Sand Rails but I would rather it be 4wd. If I wanted to build a 2wd I would just build a sports car which I have already designed a chassis and everything for I would just rather build something for offroad instead and my truck is my daily driver so I have no big plans for it.
 
use 4 link if you have room. you dont have lateral movement with this type setup like you have with a 3 link. ifs and irs both have their merit but not much for rocks. it would also be very costly because they are not common like solid axles are.
 
If you really want to use IFS/IRS, nab the parts from a hummer and start with that. That should be fullwidth enough, and use fairly strong parts. There's just more opportunity to break with independent suspension, and not enough market backing to provide the beef for making something that would be worthwhile.
 
Save money and go with solid axle.
Not only are they stronger in 95% of applications due to the fact that instead of the shafts being put through the stresses of driving, turning, and always changing angle while cycling through the suspension, parts availability and ease of maintenance is also high on the list.
There is a reaso that EVERYONE uses them.
 
awww.hurleytom.com_images_DeadHorse400x231.jpg


Any solid axled rig with proper shocks, valving, and spring rates will run circles around anything built with chevy, hummer, geo tracker Indy parts.
 
Ok ok...I wont be a total ass... here's some tech...

I started a few threads back when I was thinking about playing with indy suspensions...

Here's the one on Pirate4x4...
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=602597

Here's the one on Race-Dezert...it has more/better info...
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32276

I've done alot of research on the subject so if you have any specific questions post 'em up.

What do you have in mind for your...usable turn angle, kingpin inclination, camber cycles, caster cycles, joint strength, phasing issues, binding issues, axle plunge, scrub cycles, scrub radius, arm length, arm mount angles, steering cycles...the list goes on when trying to design A-arm IS that can actually take the abuse of rock crawling.
 
Oh... and if you're a fan of indy suspensions then keep your eyes peeled to the Gen4x4 board on Pirate at the beginning of the comp season next year.
Tin Bender PM'd me and he helped me out with some indie suspensions issues. He's working on something real cool...REAL COOL...a rock racer...with, of course, IS...
 
i say that you build a IFS/IRS rig. I say you take an H1 rob the majority of the suspension off of it. use coilover build a buggy around it. hell, through a locker or two in there and i'm sure you can take on a whole lot of offroad stuff.
 
Don't use the H1 parts, they are not as strong as you would think. I worked for a Hummer dealer for 4 years and we had a lot of problems with halfshafts and the carriers. However, if you decide to go this route let me know, I have 2 H1 diffs that are available.
 
Not sure what type they use but those baha trophy trucks have IFS and take a heck of a beating. But from what I have heard there is a butt load of money in them
 
ive thought about this many times... but after building and designing a mini-baja car, as Will said, there are alot of factors to consider when going IFS/IRS....

the main factors in strength with with independant suspensions are the shafts... they take abuse from junk such as rocks, sticks, and what not that might hit them... but they also have to be able to hold at very extreme angles (which is where they like to fail)... the longer the arms would be would help in the cycling of the shafts, and there are some beefed up aftermarket shafts for the 1 ton chevys, that might be worth looking into...

the H1s have the advantage of gear reduction hubs, and therefore can increase ground clearence and maybe help limit the amount of travel in the suspension (i.e. help to save CVs)

iirc most of the H1s dont have much suspension travel though, in stock form.... and alot of the baja rides are 2wd, but regaurdless they all have a ton of $$ in them...
 
now if you tried something that i have thought about lately... and that is IFS/IRS hydraulic buggy... where you had hydraulic wheel motors, you wouldnt have to deal with halfshafts breaking.... but it would be rather heavy.... which i would prefer for a independant buggy to be really lightweight
 
Well

Gebby Wager's TTC winning CJ7 is the coolest IFS buggy I can think (not sure it's techically a buggy but...).

afarm1.static.flickr.com_47_148243351_45e0791949.jpg
 
It would cost a lot. But here is Walker's crawler. I've heard he has gone back to a solid axle set up though.

http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/featuredvehicles/131_new_rock_truck/index.html

Walker Evan's quote on his IFS/IRS...
..."It wasn't really a matter of how much money we poured into it, it worked excellent on 9 out of 10 obstacles but worked so bad on the 1 out of 10 obstacles that we lost everything we gained on the first 9, with more time I'm sure it could be worked out".

aimages.4wheeloffroad.com_featuredvehicles_131_04z_Walker_Evans_Rock_Truck_Front_View_Suspension.jpg


aimages.4wheeloffroad.com_featuredvehicles_131_03z_Walker_Evans_Rock_Truck_Rear_Suspension.jpg


aimages.4wheeloffroad.com_featuredvehicles_131_02z_Walker_Evans_Rock_Truck_Front_Suspension.jpg


aimages.4wheeloffroad.com_featuredvehicles_131_04z_Walker_Evans_Rock_Truck_Low_Angle_Front_View.jpg
 
Yeah that rig is on solid axles now...From what I've read they destroyed the cv's so no one could copy 'em.
Trailing arms (what's on that rig) are not the way to go either...


Like was said...biggest problem with IS on any rig going into the rocks with any amount of decent motor is getting the thing to hold together. You HAVE to use CV's of sorts because the phasing on standard U-joints would rip themselves apart when turning under the torque loads of low trans, crawler boxes, tcases and ring gears. Unless you wheel like a pansie...H1 stuff will NOT hold up...Chevy stuff will NOT hold up...it's been done.

Most Trophy Trucks cruise in 2WD. A couple have 4wd and they're using Cornay joints now...not Vdub shafts...(Check out the links i posted before) But still...they don't have the need to turn 45degrees or experience the same torque loads as a rig in the rocks.

What you need are Bobby Long's CV's (2 at each corner)8 total$$$,custom shaft, single seat, 2 9" centers, LS1, Powerglide, Tcase...oh...and to get any amount of decent turning angle and travel it'll need to be as wide as rockwells:driver::popcorn: Start building! (It's what I want to build too...$$:shaking:)
 
paradisePWoffrd: The hydraulic motors at each wheel is a hell of an idea, I think it could be made lighter if you used electric motors instead but then theres the problem of sealing the motor.

Will: I looked into those links you posted, it wasn't too long ago that you were looking into it and apparently with alot more planning behind it. I have not even thought about any of the angles or lengths. I figured I would see if it was even a worthwhile effort before putting too much time into it.

I'd say that quote from Walker Evans is as good as any reason to just stick with solid axles, and he had alot more time and money into that rig then I could ever justify.

I guess my time will be better spent to properly set up solid axles than to try and predict every variable in an independant setup.

thanks for the replies and helpful opinions
 
Well I just came up with another idea that may be more suited with the independant suspensions. The problem that I have had with mounting a transverse engine and transaxle mid engine with a welded diff and driveshafts to both axles was the fact of full time 4x4. The only way I could think of before was to have manual hubs in the front and disengage them, which I didn't feelwas a great option. If I put a splined collar on the front driveshaft with pins where I could disengage the entire axle. The only way that I can see this being feasable is to use Ifs because of the driveshaft would not be moving along with the axle movement. Does anyone have any ideas on how I could improve on this idea or even if there is an actual way to do this that I have not been able to find. I would also like to have more than just 4lo
 
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