Need help sizing a culvert.

josh m

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
I've got a few creek crossings at the new place. One of them had a 2' culvert and it had been washing out, so I installed another 2' culvert. We had several inches of rain 3-4 saturdays ago. And it washed out again. That creek channels several hundred acres as well as any overspill from Alamance regional medical centers catchment ponds.
City of Burlington told me tough shit and won't help me size culvert even though it's all coming from within the city limits.
Anyone here have a idea on 2 vs 3 vs 4' culvert flow capacity.
Next option would be to pour a concrete spillway to reduce washout during these big rain events. During that last heavy rain I probably lost a tandem load of crushed asphalt down the 2 creeks.


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Not only getting proper flow, but making sure that flow is directed into the culvert, & not able to create a pressure zone or area that starts washing out around or under the culvert. The recent storms saw many culverts, fail, due to mostly getting clogged. Then the back up found another way around or under the culvert, creating a failure.
Hope that is as clear as mud!
 
The real questions is how big of one (or two) can you fit? That's what you need.

Here's a calculator that will give you acreage and flow rate based on pipe size and type and slope:
Drainage Calculator by Pipe Size « Prinsco, Inc

I have no idea how accurate it is, but since it's gotta be formula driven, it should be accurate for comparing one size to another.
 
The culvert material makes a big difference also....corrugated metal vs. concrete vs. smooth wall plastic. Slope is a factor plus as mentioned, the entrance condition. If you have several hundred acres, a 2' pipe is nowhere close. I roughly calculated for 200 acres (not sure of how much of this is developed...makes a big difference) and I get about 600 cfs which translates to a 8' concrete pipe at 0.5% slope. This is designed it for a 10 year storm which is the accepted standard for minor road crossings and driveways. I emphasize again, lots of unknown variables thrown in to give an educated guess. I can certainly refine it more if I know the location and can determine the drainage area. If the height of the 8' doesn't fit, you can opt for multiple smaller pipes. Let me know if I can help. I may not know as much as some of you jokers about welding and fabricating....but I can drain some stuff.
 
I picked a 20' stick of 36" double wall plastic last week. I'm hoping that will be big enough. What other info can get @Subzilla so you can make a more precise calculation.



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I’ve found pile size isn’t main factor it’s the route the water takes to the pipes that make the big diff! I’d go bigger and not have to worry about it tho I’m about to be doing the same at my place bc springs changed course offcthe mtn and ended up in driveway
 
Here are a couple of screen shots of what I think to be the drain area
aedcf55814d7b318383b8b76a888b060.jpg
d1bc7835c63327d86b175bf87c9de2ea.jpg
8e439c150cd1275a12eeb6f650d5d488.jpg

In the last picture the curser is on the spot where the land bridge is going.



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Perfect. Went to the GIS site and can see exactly what I need. The day has started off busy already.....will try to get to it and let you know. Won't take long at all. We can message on the side if you want....up to you.

Sounds good. Thx


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Perfect. Went to the GIS site and can see exactly what I need. The day has started off busy already.....will try to get to it and let you know. Won't take long at all. We can message on the side if you want....up to you.

Keep it in the thread, I'm sure I'm not the only person curious :lol:
 
I looked at the map again the hospital across grand oaks drive (to the north) has a drainage pond system. It looks like the (west fork) stream originates with that pond overflow.
The driveway crosses both forks separately. They converge around 150' south of the drive. They both over flow the driveway. The east fork has a smaller culvert maybe 16" I'm thinking of installing a 24" there. And installing the 36" one on the western fork.
Property to north is 50/50 woods and corn field mine is most woods. I think that makes a difference with flow/volume.
 
Sorry to take a while to get back to you….had a friend in the hospital, a son graduate from NCSU, loads of work piling up….

So, I’ll give you the bottom line numbers first, then explain the details for those of you eager to be bored. There are approximately 191 acres flowing to your west fork driveway crossing yielding a 2 year storm flow of 265 cfs (cubic feet per second) and 70 acres flowing to the east fork driveway crossing yielding a flow of 65 cfs. Assuming you’re using your 36” plastic pipes and assuming they are corrugated, the west side would need 2 36” pipes at 5% slope. You could use 1 36” pipe at 15% slope but that increases the outlet velocity to an unacceptable range which can scour out the area just downstream of the pipe. The east side needs the 36” pipe to be at a 3% slope. Let me know if they are smooth wall pipes which would reduce size/slope need. I can give that to you.

Another thing that would help to keep the pipes from washing out would be to add a flared end section to each end. This would help to channel the water into the pipe. Kind of difficult for water that is in a channel to be funneled into that circular opening without disturbing the bank slope at your driveway. May also want to add some riprap around the opening to "armor" the bank....anything to reduce the impact and velocity of that water flowing down the channel.

Now, some further explanation. The Alamance County GIS was very helpful but didn’t have existing storm drainage system info available for the streets so I did my best to determine where the water flows based on the topography. I do see the detention pond for the hospital and took that into account for the flow on the west side……which will reduce the actual storm water runoff volume getting to your driveway.

2 year storm vs. 10 year storm vs. 100 year storm….the “blank” year storm does not mean the storm that comes every “blank” years. It really translates to a probability of occurrence or percent chance. In other words, the 100 year storm has a 1% chance of occurring every year, the 50 year storm has 2% chance of occurring every year, 10 year – 10% chance, 2 year – 50% chance. So you could get a 100 year storm occurring consecutive years, as some of you guys have seen out east. The usual accepted “design” storm for driveway pipes is the 2 year storm, for subdivision street systems is the 10 year storm, and 25, 50, and 100 year for roadways depending on how minor or major they are and the governing agency. I did the 2 year storm for your driveway so for the big storm that has a 50% chance of occurring every year, you should be good.

There are many variables in storm drainage design and we try to take all of them into account. One that is very recently noticeable is the amount of rain we’ve had and the overly saturated ground. Obviously, the ground loses ability to absorb any more rain which produces more runoff. Can’t really account for that in calculations. Another variable is the type of terrain in the large areas running toward your property. Of course, the developed areas (buildings, pavement) produce more runoff, grassy areas while absorbing much more than developed areas do not absorb as much as a wooded area. I estimated as best as I could these areas based on the aerial photos.

Lesson finished. Please let me know if you have questions or of something here doesn’t make sense or if I did something wrong.

Mark
 
Wow!!
Thanks!!!!
Yes the 36" pipe is a double wall smooth bore pipe.


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Sorry to take a while to get back to you….had a friend in the hospital, a son graduate from NCSU, loads of work piling up….

So, I’ll give you the bottom line numbers first, then explain the details for those of you eager to be bored. There are approximately 191 acres flowing to your west fork driveway crossing yielding a 2 year storm flow of 265 cfs (cubic feet per second) and 70 acres flowing to the east fork driveway crossing yielding a flow of 65 cfs. Assuming you’re using your 36” plastic pipes and assuming they are corrugated, the west side would need 2 36” pipes at 5% slope. You could use 1 36” pipe at 15% slope but that increases the outlet velocity to an unacceptable range which can scour out the area just downstream of the pipe. The east side needs the 36” pipe to be at a 3% slope. Let me know if they are smooth wall pipes which would reduce size/slope need. I can give that to you.

Another thing that would help to keep the pipes from washing out would be to add a flared end section to each end. This would help to channel the water into the pipe. Kind of difficult for water that is in a channel to be funneled into that circular opening without disturbing the bank slope at your driveway. May also want to add some riprap around the opening to "armor" the bank....anything to reduce the impact and velocity of that water flowing down the channel.

Now, some further explanation. The Alamance County GIS was very helpful but didn’t have existing storm drainage system info available for the streets so I did my best to determine where the water flows based on the topography. I do see the detention pond for the hospital and took that into account for the flow on the west side……which will reduce the actual storm water runoff volume getting to your driveway.

2 year storm vs. 10 year storm vs. 100 year storm….the “blank” year storm does not mean the storm that comes every “blank” years. It really translates to a probability of occurrence or percent chance. In other words, the 100 year storm has a 1% chance of occurring every year, the 50 year storm has 2% chance of occurring every year, 10 year – 10% chance, 2 year – 50% chance. So you could get a 100 year storm occurring consecutive years, as some of you guys have seen out east. The usual accepted “design” storm for driveway pipes is the 2 year storm, for subdivision street systems is the 10 year storm, and 25, 50, and 100 year for roadways depending on how minor or major they are and the governing agency. I did the 2 year storm for your driveway so for the big storm that has a 50% chance of occurring every year, you should be good.

There are many variables in storm drainage design and we try to take all of them into account. One that is very recently noticeable is the amount of rain we’ve had and the overly saturated ground. Obviously, the ground loses ability to absorb any more rain which produces more runoff. Can’t really account for that in calculations. Another variable is the type of terrain in the large areas running toward your property. Of course, the developed areas (buildings, pavement) produce more runoff, grassy areas while absorbing much more than developed areas do not absorb as much as a wooded area. I estimated as best as I could these areas based on the aerial photos.

Lesson finished. Please let me know if you have questions or of something here doesn’t make sense or if I did something wrong.

Mark
I nominate this for NC4x4 post of the year!
 
I nominate this for NC4x4 post of the year!
No triangles, ad hominems, straw man, or boobs. All that post has is well thought out useful information. What kind of forum do you think this is?
 
The smooth wall pipe changes things. For the west side, you could use 1 36" pipe at 5% slope which is a little on the high side for outlet velocity. As long as you place some riprap down stream or just keep an eye on it for a while, you could be ok. For the east side driveway, you can set the 1 36" pipe at 1% slope. Again, these are for the 2 year storm with all the above mentioned variables.
 
Yup, super neat information. I have no need to know this sort of thing but I love to learn about it.
 
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