Oil change at dealer - am I imagining this?

[RatLabGuy]

Now that it's resolved...

somebody help me out here. I'm not a diesel guy - but if iit was just driven home that day, I'm assuming we're not talking a not of miles, then shouldn't the oil still be reasonably clear? If the old filter was still on there, wouldn't it be cycling dirty oil back into it making it not so clear?
Or would the relative quantity of whats in teh filter just be that little?

Did you ask them what the oil in the filter looked like, to confirm if you were wrong or not?

 

[mysterync]

Now that it's resolved...

somebody help me out here. I'm not a diesel guy - but if iit was just driven home that day, I'm assuming we're not talking a not of miles, then shouldn't the oil still be reasonably clear? If the old filter was still on there, wouldn't it be cycling dirty oil back into it making it not so clear?
Or would the relative quantity of whats in teh filter just be that little?

Did you ask them what the oil in the filter looked like, to confirm if you were wrong or not?

No, when we change oil in one, after the fire up to check the level it's beginning to mix, you could drive it around the parking lot and it'd be black as coal. It really comes down to the oil that remains in the system.

 

[drkelly]

Im about to turn 42 yrs old and i have changed the oil myself in every car or truck that i have owned for my whole life. I even forfeited the free oil changes that my wifes new Highlander came with and did it myself.

 

[benmack1]

Now that it's resolved...

somebody help me out here. I'm not a diesel guy - but if iit was just driven home that day, I'm assuming we're not talking a not of miles, then shouldn't the oil still be reasonably clear? If the old filter was still on there, wouldn't it be cycling dirty oil back into it making it not so clear?
Or would the relative quantity of whats in teh filter just be that little?

Did you ask them what the oil in the filter looked like, to confirm if you were wrong or not?

Once I was convinced the filter was not changed, I had little faith the oil was changed either so I was in no mood for continuing to play this horseshit game any longer. One of us was going to do a full oil change and I wasn't too concerned if it was them or me, I just wanted to be sure the truck was properly serviced. As mysterync said, the oil black right away so would be very hard to tell and be sure. And no on the filter, I didn't ask and they didn't say anything on what it looked like.

 

[BIGWOODY]

Wait, what?

What does employee compensation have to do with being dishonest, whether at the employee or management level?

Techs, mechanics, wrench turners whatever you want to call them are paid commission. If the labor guide says it take 5 hours to put a crankshaft seal in , he gets paid 5 hours no matter if it take 5 minutes or 10 hours. Now, if that vehicle is under warranty then the guy only gets paid what the manufacture says he gets paid to do the job (warranty labor rate vs. customer pay labor rate) and that's usually going to be a whole lot less than what it would be if it were a customer pay job , sometimes less than half of what he should be paid. So tech gets pissed off and starts not doing services, putting parts in his tool box and generally doing a halfass job for feeling like he is getting halfass compensated. Techs at most dealership hate hate hate to do warranty work because it's too damn hard to make any money.
I have been confronted many time with my customers saying "you charged me 3 hours and it only took you an hour". I ask them if they get paid for what they know or what they do? (I work on high end european cars so you can imagine the answer I usually get). I explain to them that the labor guide is used by most every reputable shop/dealership and the fact that I have done job X 68 times before means I can do it faster now than I could the first few times. Would you rather have someone doing this job that has done it over and over again or a newbie that most likely is going to screw something up? Dealerships usually avoid this confrontation by letting the car sit after it's repaired for however long they need to so the customer doesn't feel like he got hosed(if he was at the dealership, he probably got hosed anyway). I personally prefer the blunt ,direct, no bullshit, honest , explanation of why you got billed 5 hours for something that took me 3. I also will cut billing time off a job I've done a 100 times and feel like the labor guide has over allowed time to do (really). Things that are super quick to do we usually charge nothing for and I've had customers say "you need to charge something". My response is I've got a 4 year old and a 6 year old , I need to make a little bit for a loooooong time, not knock your head off and never see you again. Some may not agree the the 100% honest approach and let me assure you at the shop management seminars I've been to don't really encourage it. We've been in business 26 years, don't advertise, aren't even in the phone book (other than one line white page) we've yet to have a day where we weren't busy with plenty to do for the next day.

 

[mysterync]

Techs, mechanics, wrench turners whatever you want to call them are paid commission. If the labor guide says it take 5 hours to put a crankshaft seal in , he gets paid 5 hours no matter if it take 5 minutes or 10 hours. Now, if that vehicle is under warranty then the guy only gets paid what the manufacture says he gets paid to do the job (warranty labor rate vs. customer pay labor rate) and that's usually going to be a whole lot less than what it would be if it were a customer pay job , sometimes less than half of what he should be paid. So tech gets pissed off and starts not doing services, putting parts in his tool box and generally doing a halfass job for feeling like he is getting halfass compensated. Techs at most dealership hate hate hate to do warranty work because it's too damn hard to make any money.
I have been confronted many time with my customers saying "you charged me 3 hours and it only took you an hour". I ask them if they get paid for what they know or what they do? (I work on high end european cars so you can imagine the answer I usually get). I explain to them that the labor guide is used by most every reputable shop/dealership and the fact that I have done job X 68 times before means I can do it faster now than I could the first few times. Would you rather have someone doing this job that has done it over and over again or a newbie that most likely is going to screw something up? Dealerships usually avoid this confrontation by letting the car sit after it's repaired for however long they need to so the customer doesn't feel like he got hosed(if he was at the dealership, he probably got hosed anyway). I personally prefer the blunt ,direct, no bullshit, honest , explanation of why you got billed 5 hours for something that took me 3. I also will cut billing time off a job I've done a 100 times and feel like the labor guide has over allowed time to do (really). Things that are super quick to do we usually charge nothing for and I've had customers say "you need to charge something". My response is I've got a 4 year old and a 6 year old , I need to make a little bit for a loooooong time, not knock your head off and never see you again. Some may not agree the the 100% honest approach and let me assure you at the shop management seminars I've been to don't really encourage it. We've been in business 26 years, don't advertise, aren't even in the phone book (other than one line white page) we've yet to have a day where we weren't busy with plenty to do for the next day.

We bill book unless it takes longer then it's by the hour. Diag is hourly. If you call a plumber, how long does he charge your for? We're honest, but fair to ourselves!

 

[tlucier]

I spoke with the shop foreman and service head

Could you tell he was the service head because he was wearing knee pads?

 

[BIGWOODY]

We bill book unless it takes longer then it's by the hour. Diag is hourly. If you call a plumber, how long does he charge your for? We're honest, but fair to ourselves!

So you bill book but if you can't do it in that amount of time you bill more? That doesn't seem fair to the customer…what about the times you bill book and beat the book by a few hours is that all you charge? I don't think you get to have it both ways. I'd feel cheated if I got the rookie that couldn't do it in the allotted amount of time and I got to pay for his education.

 

[mysterync]

So you bill book but if you can't do it in that amount of time you bill more? That doesn't seem fair to the customer…what about the time you bill book and be a the book by a few hours is that all you charge? I don't think you get to have it both ways, that's not fair to the customer.

I should have clarified, Only time we run additional time over book is in extenuating circumstances, heavy corrosion, rust etc. For the most part staying at or around book is no problem.
And in response to the edit, if we are the cause of additional time we cover it, maybe a better way to put it is - if it's something out of our control, the vehicle requires substantial cleaning before repair, broken bolts that couldn't be avoided and require significant time investment to repair, corrosion = you pay - however if it's something the shop causes or the staff is less than efficient that's on them. Make sense?

 

[rodney eppes]

Some Dealerships, or their employees, have Always screwed customers, & always will. Just as my Father dropped his car off once for service, & valve cover replacement. When he returned at the end of the day, my Brother went with him. My Brother is a Certified mechanic. Dad's went in , paid his bill, & turned in the Loaner car. Brother & Dad walked out to the car, & raised the hood. The car had not been touched. I heard that the Service Manager's ears, were on Fire, after my Brother got done with him!

 

[mysterync]

Some Dealerships, or their employees, have Always screwed customers, & always will. Just as my Father dropped his car off once for service, & valve cover replacement. When he returned at the end of the day, my Brother went with him. My Brother is a Certified mechanic. Dad's went in , paid his bill, & turned in the Loaner car. Brother & Dad walked out to the car, & raised the hood. The car had not been touched. I heard that the Service Manager's ears, were on Fire, after my Brother got done with him!

We had a customer visit a Wilkes county dealer recently for an a/c compressor replacement. When he picked it up, the a/c didn't work. He looked and it obviously hadn't been changed. He complained, they repaired it. To shorten a long story, he picked it up the second time and it had a blown headgasket, I won't got into the extended story of how the tech caused it. Point is in auto repair your only as good as your employees, when dealers fail to pay fairly it pushes lots of quality employees out of the field!

 

[Infamous1]

........and how many have had good experiences at a dealer or independent and chimed in here? Its tough even being honest b/c people don't know anything about what goes on under the hood. It was fine yesterday, now its not and it will cost 1k?

 

[mysterync]

........and how many have had good experiences at a dealer or independent and chimed in here? Its tough even being honest b/c people don't know anything about what goes on under the hood. It was fine yesterday, now its not and it will cost 1k?

A big portion of it is desire to spend. If I want a new tv, I'll enjoy spending $3,000 on something I want...I don't want to fix my car/truck, $3,000 investment in my vehicle isn't nearly as enjoyable as a new TV or something I want. Educating the customer helps, but the field has such a poor reputation some clients think your blowing smoke.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

I should have clarified, Only time we run additional time over book is in extenuating circumstances, heavy corrosion, rust etc. For the most part staying at or around book is no problem.
And in response to the edit, if we are the cause of additional time we cover it, maybe a better way to put it is - if it's something out of our control, the vehicle requires substantial cleaning before repair, broken bolts that couldn't be avoided and require significant time investment to repair, corrosion = you pay - however if it's something the shop causes or the staff is less than efficient that's on them. Make sense?

I usually equate stuff like that to the "pain and suffering charge." Never fun working on rusty as shit or breaking bolts.

 

[BIGWOODY]

I usually equate stuff like that to the "pain and suffering charge." Never fun working on rusty as shit or breaking bolts.

I'd never want to work on anything vehicle related north of southern VA.Everything I see from northern VA and up is rusty as hell, even stuff just a few years old. If I lived up there I'd have to find another line of work.

 

[Chris_Keziah]

I'd never want to work on anything vehicle related north of southern VA.Everything I see from northern VA and up is rusty as hell, even stuff just a few years old. If I lived up there I'd have to find another line of work.

If you do you probably will only once. I was helping out at my buddy's shop, had an S-10 come in from NY. Had to change a fuel line that followed the trans tunnel and every time you'd breathe wrong or look at that bastard rust would fall in your face and every where else. Really no surprise the tool of choice for northern shops is a torch.

 

[josh m]

If you do you probably will only once. I was helping out at my buddy's shop, had an S-10 come in from NY. Had to change a fuel line that followed the trans tunnel and every time you'd breathe wrong or look at that bastard rust would fall in your face and every where else. Really no surprise the tool of choice for northern shops is a torch.

Proper term is the "Blue Wrench"

 

[BIGWOODY]

We refer to the it as the "gas ratchet"

 

[shawn]

when dealers fail to pay fairly

It's interesting that this point keeps coming up.

"These guys don't get paid what they're worth, so it's inevitable -- although I'm not saying it's right -- that they're going to screw the customer over."

First off, if a guy is working flat rate warranty work, the dealership doesn't have a say in what he's getting paid. Those rates are set by the manufacturer and are reimbursed to the dealership accordingly. Secondly, if that tech is worth more than he's getting paid, doesn't it stand to reason that he basically has three choices: ask what he has to do to get a raise, go find a job that pays him what he thinks he's worth, or resign himself to the fact that this job does not actually pay what he thinks it should pay.

What the fuck has gone wrong with our society that we just accept that fraud is the reasonable - although not quite accepted - outcome of not giving people what they think they're entitled to have?

 

[mysterync]

It's interesting that this point keeps coming up.

"These guys don't get paid what they're worth, so it's inevitable -- although I'm not saying it's right -- that they're going to screw the customer over."

First off, if a guy is working flat rate warranty work, the dealership doesn't have a say in what he's getting paid. Those rates are set by the manufacturer and are reimbursed to the dealership accordingly. Secondly, if that tech is worth more than he's getting paid, doesn't it stand to reason that he basically has three choices: ask what he has to do to get a raise, go find a job that pays him what he thinks he's worth, or resign himself to the fact that this job does not actually pay what he thinks it should pay.

What the fuck has gone wrong with our society that we just accept that fraud is the reasonable - although not quite accepted - outcome of not giving people what they think they're entitled to have?

Very valid point, however I'm not necessarily speaking of flat rate. I'm speaking of two issues - warranty book time and free work. For instance free oil changes depending on dealer may result in the tech not being paid. I know one dealer local to me offered free oil changes as a promotion and expected the tech to inspect the vehicle to "find work". The techs are paid 0.0 for the oil change and visual/mechanical inspection. Warranty work has been covered above. As far as your point, dealerships continually lower labor rates for flat time, however in some cases they pay very fairly per book hour. The problem also touches on dealership politics where a seasoned tech may receive a .5 diag on a complicated diagnosis that may require 3 to 4 hours. Meanwhile a tech that can barely wipe his butt is making double the money doing oil changes and brake services. On the flip side in most shops that balances out when the seasoned tech gets a big job, my point is though it's getting more often to see the seasoned tech loaded with crap work while the other get gravy. Next thing you know the tech is fed up and just leaves the field. It's getting harder and harder to find quality help in this field! You could give them the world, and they'd still think you screwed them over and steal, lie and cheat until they were terminated.

 

[Ron]

Warranty work is an interesting one. For example I know when I worked for CMI Service managers loved to bitch about the warranty rate ($65/hr at that time) and how it was killing their profitability, yet none of the techs were flat rated more than $28. Mean while they were also allowed to bill for consumables, shop supplies, software depreciation and overhead. These soft costs were done on the back-end at quarterly billings as a % of total warranty revenue but they totally existed.

I find it funny I know about 8-10, what I would call true technicians (not mechanics, not parts changers, not oil drum donkeys, true technicians) and all of them make ~ $100k/yr.
Yet what I find the strangest thing is they never have the biggest toolbox in the shop. Seems they use the same tool (their brain) to manage their life as they do their job and are rewarded appropriately for it.

I know for a fact there are bad unscrupulous dealerships out there. If you are a good tech and stuck at one, quit. Now. Or at least as quick as you find another job to go to. Watch your money, do your job, but dont allow yourself to be pushed around and you will do great.

 

[shawn]

Yeah @Ron, but how can they be expected to make payments on their $20k roll chest if they're only making $28/hr?

@snappy wants his money!

 

[RatLabGuy]

I know one dealer local to me offered free oil changes as a promotion and expected the tech to inspect the vehicle to "find work". The techs are paid 0.0 for the oil change and visual/mechanical inspection.

Maybe I'm crazy - but telling an employee they must work for 0$/hr is against the law.

 

[mysterync]

Maybe I'm crazy - but telling an employee they must work for 0$/hr is against the law.

I agree. California recently made some legal changes for flat rate. There are guys who make a fortune on flat rate, it's not really flat rate that's the problem. It's management teams gouging for every dime of profit they can lol.

 

[Fabrik8]

What the fuck has gone wrong with our society that we just accept that fraud is the reasonable - although not quite accepted - outcome of not giving people what they think they're entitled to have?

That's my big problem with this situation. There are no possible excuses that can offer an explanation about why a service was paid for and not received. There is no justification for fraud, period, and the dealership needs to get it's house in order. I don't care what the techs get paid, that isn't my concern. If pay for something, I should get it, and what ever problems occur in the organization behind the scenes is not my problem.