Opening sunroom to be part of den

[RatLabGuy]

Our den back den (~12x16) has a sliding glass door that opens (~34") into a sunroom (also ~12x16) that used to be a cement back patio. In the 90s the PO enclosed it with windows, drywall,s ceiling, ceiling fan, outlets etc and roof addition. The windows are big and there is very little wall between them (only a few inches). No heat or A/C. During the summer it definitely gets hot and with some landscaping changes, 2 of the 3 sides will see a lot of sun (the 3rd is more patio/porch under the same roofline). But when the ceiling fan is running and the door open it's not terrible.
For awhile during winter we just closed the door and didn't use it, then it became a game room, now its the craft room and the door pretty much stays open all the time.
We are thinking about just going ahead and removing the whole glass wall between them (~9') and making it into one big air space.

What can I do to minimize impact on the home heat/a/c? Can certainly replace the fan with something bigger and efficient. The windows are just basic single pane, is it worth it to look into replacing with high efficiency? The flooring is just ceramic tile on the slab, and I'd likely add a layer of laminate or something, is it helpful to ad an additional layer of something other than the typical thin foam barrier? There are two air supplies in teh walls on either side of the glass doors pushing into the den (pointing away from the sunroom)

If it matters this sunroom is about 190 sq and the main level of the house w/o it is ~1700.

 

[Loganwayne]

upgrading your windows would help since it is mostly windows. also do you know if they insulated any of it when they closed it in? If there is duct work that runs you could take one supply and dump it into the sunroom or add a line and dump into the sunroom. either could over tax your HVAC system depending on what it was sized for and if it had the extra capacity.

 

[RatLabGuy]

upgrading your windows would help since it is mostly windows. also do you know if they insulated any of it when they closed it in? If there is duct work that runs you could take one supply and dump it into the sunroom or add a line and dump into the sunroom. either could over tax your HVAC system depending on what it was sized for and if it had the extra capacity.

I have no idea. If there is, it will only be in the lower 3' of wall underneath the windows or 18" above them aside from maybe near the corners b/c the only way to fit anything would have been spray foam, which I seriously doubt they did back then. After we'd been living here about 4 years the county called following up on the permit they got to do the job... and never closed out... so it was never inspected... so no telling if it was done to code or not.

There's no way to get a new run off a duct into the space bc it's on a slab beside the main level of the house and all out ducts are from below (system in basement. The only option might be to cut into the outer wall to get to one of the ones that's on the outer edges of the shared wall (on either side of the glass door wall) so that 1 is facing each direction. But the outside of the wall is brick and that would be a serious PITA.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

The ceiling and windows are where you are going to loose most of your cooling/heating. I would insulate the ceiling if it isnt, and maybe upgrade the windows.

 

[Loganwayne]

you could also get a small one head mini split that run off 110. they come pre charged you would need to cut two small holes and hook it up and it would condition the space.

 

[rockcity]

Mini split. Otherwise you are likely overloading your existing AC regardless what you do.

 

[Wes]

We put a ptac unit in ours at my previous house and it still had a hard time heating and cooling it. It was brick walls, windows on 3 sides, around 15’x15’, outdoor carpet on a slab, non insulated roof with a ceiling fan. Had sliding glass doors that led into the house. Hot as hell most of the time. Curtains or tinted glass might have helped, but that ptac struggled to keep up year round and it was a big unit for the small space.

 

[RatLabGuy]

you could also get a small one head mini split that run off 110. they come pre charged you would need to cut two small holes and hook it up and it would condition the space.

Oooh this is a great idea. Not sure why I didn't think of it before! The pad for the compressor is just outside beside this sunroom too.
The only hard part would be finding the wall space for the inside unit b/c its all windows. Unless I put it above one.
I mean, now that I think of it even a stupid window heat/ac pump would work, one of the windows just overlooks the patio and is useless.

 

[RatLabGuy]

The ceiling and windows are where you are going to loose most of your cooling/heating. I would insulate the ceiling if it isnt, and maybe upgrade the windows.

Unfortunately I have no idea what the ceiling insulation situation is. It's an addition sticking out from the roof with no access from the attic (which still has the original decking where it was added over.
Hmmm.... I'm probably going to replace the overhead ceiling fan.. .when I do if there's any space in the ceiling drywall around the mounting box I'll snake an endoscope cam up there and look... been wanting an excuse to use that thing ;-)

 

[Lizooki]

Black-out and insulated curtains , floor to ceiling, work well to keep whats there, there.
But it will still heat up, or cool quickly without a/c or heat.
I watching this to see what you do.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Black-out and insulated curtains , floor to ceiling, work well to keep whats there, there.
But it will still heat up, or cool quickly without a/c or heat.
I watching this to see what you do.

While we'll add some kind of shades - blackout curtains literally removes the whole point of having a room full of windows - having a view ;-)

 

[rockcity]

While we'll add some kind of shades - blackout curtains literally removes the whole point of having a room full of windows - having a view ;-)

Having a room full of windows adds a significant amount of load to an already taxed hvac system.

I have done several conversions like you have and even with upgraded windows and proper insulation to code, I always have to end up putting a mini split in there to make up for the added square footage and the significant added load with all the windows.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Having a room full of windows adds a significant amount of load to an already taxed hvac system.

I have done several conversions like you have and even with upgraded windows and proper insulation to code, I always have to end up putting a mini split in there to make up for the added square footage and the significant added load with all the windows.

Thanks. I'm totally sold on the mini split, already thinking about where to put it.

Dumb question is there any real functional difference between a mini split and a window unit? Isn't it basically the same thing but without the umbilical cord separating halves?
Aside from the obvious ugliness.

 

[rockcity]

Thanks. I'm totally sold on the mini split, already thinking about where to put it.

Dumb question is there any real functional difference between a mini split and a window unit? Isn't it basically the same thing but without the umbilical cord separating halves?
Aside from the obvious ugliness.

Functionally they are pretty much the same. But the mini split systems are much quieter and efficient. They are also a more attractive option than a window unit. You pretty much know the pros/cons of a window unit

 

[Curtis_H]

Thanks. I'm totally sold on the mini split, already thinking about where to put it.

Dumb question is there any real functional difference between a mini split and a window unit? Isn't it basically the same thing but without the umbilical cord separating halves?
Aside from the obvious ugliness.

Thanks. I'm totally sold on the mini split, already thinking about where to put it.

Dumb question is there any real functional difference between a mini split and a window unit? Isn't it basically the same thing but without the umbilical cord separating halves?
Aside from the obvious ugliness.

A Mini split is much more energy efficient. They are variable speed and will ramp up and down to match the load. Many mini splits will heat to full capacity down to 0* with no heat strips. Some even lower.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Functionally they are pretty much the same. But the mini split systems are much quieter and efficient. They are also a more attractive option than a window unit. You pretty much know the pros/cons of a window unit

A Mini split is much more energy efficient. They are variable speed and will ramp up and down to match the load. Many mini splits will heat to full capacity down to 0* with no heat strips. Some even lower.

Soooo... Why is that? Is it just a matter of the market segment driving design?
I mean mechanically they should be identical, a compressor, a condenser, a blower.... In one case they are in separate units separated by a tube, in the other it's all in one box.
I guess the window units are forced to deal with a much tighter space constraint?

I will go with a mini split. I just find things like this to be really curious

 

[Curtis_H]

Soooo... Why is that? Is it just a matter of the market segment driving design?
I mean mechanically they should be identical, a compressor, a condenser, a blower.... In one case they are in separate units separated by a tube, in the other it's all in one box.
I guess the window units are forced to deal with a much tighter space constraint?

I will go with a mini split. I just find things like this to be really curious

I’m not an engineer but I think you hit the nail on the head with size constraints. Not enough room in a window unit for the larger coils that help with increased efficiency or room for large inverter boards and variable speed motors. I think there is still a need for the lower price point and easier installation option of a window unit. But mini splits are quickly getting cheaper. There are even diy mini splits options available now.

 

[rockcity]

Soooo... Why is that? Is it just a matter of the market segment driving design?
I mean mechanically they should be identical, a compressor, a condenser, a blower.... In one case they are in separate units separated by a tube, in the other it's all in one box.
I guess the window units are forced to deal with a much tighter space constraint?

I will go with a mini split. I just find things like this to be really curious

Window units are made to function and meet a specific price point. That also means a specific target market, which usually means it needs to be as cheap as possible.

There are plenty of traditional split systems of the same size and function but with vastly different parts and efficiencies with significant price differences. It’s no different with window units except all of them have the cheap and least efficient components.

Also, code and govt regulations have less restrictions on window units than they do on more permanent systems for your house, so they can be made much cheaper with less efficient parts.

 

[Lizooki]

While we'll add some kind of shades - blackout curtains literally removes the whole point of having a room full of windows - having a view ;-)

Yup, agree 100%, but at least you aren’t sitting in a puddle of your own fluids.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Looking into mini splits.

Learned there is indeed insulation in the roof at least, fiberglass w a layer of EPS or something similar between it and the roof deck. So that's good news.

So upgrading windows potentially worth it then? What's the latest good performance/value model or style to look for being ridiculously expensive? I'll need 9 of them, 36x53, if it matters.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Anybody know if there's really a difference between the cheap RovSun 9k mini split from say Amazon vs a Mr Cool w/ the same specs but 2x the price? Seer is slightly lower ("only" 19) but given its under 200 sq ft, and even if I block off the main supply vents in the den it will be under 400 total... I'm nto sure why I'd care much.

 

[jyaks]

If you do laminate floors I'd get the quiet walk pad under it instead of the combo foam.

 

[RatLabGuy]

If you do laminate floors I'd get the quiet walk pad under it instead of the combo foam.

Good point. Whatever I do for flooring cover overt eh tiles will require a pretty good thermal break.

 

[Noel]

Anybody know if there's really a difference between the cheap RovSun 9k mini split from say Amazon vs a Mr Cool w/ the same specs but 2x the price? Seer is slightly lower ("only" 19) but given its under 200 sq ft, and even if I block off the main supply vents in the den it will be under 400 total... I'm nto sure why I'd care much.

I was told the difference in a good one and a cheap one would be repairs. Doubtful you would get parts for an Amazon one one in a couple years. Basically the cheaper ones are throw away units

 

[83oldyoda4x4]

Anybody know if there's really a difference between the cheap RovSun 9k mini split from say Amazon vs a Mr Cool w/ the same specs but 2x the price? Seer is slightly lower ("only" 19) but given its under 200 sq ft, and even if I block off the main supply vents in the den it will be under 400 total... I'm nto sure why I'd care much.

I was told the difference in a good one and a cheap one would be repairs. Doubtful you would get parts for an Amazon one one in a couple years. Basically the cheaper ones are throw away units

Bingo get something name brand with support IE parts availability.