paragon update

RatLabGuy

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
There was some rumblings last weekend at the big dogs event by people who live up that way that the airport deal is not going so well right now... Who knows..
 
It was a scam

The company who was trying to open this so called airport got a few hundred million from the government for testing and review of the land for use as an airport. They paid a pitance for testing and review of the land and kept the rest of the millions for their own pockets.

corporate scrabble game to shuffle money from the government to big business.

Unfortunately the PA Coal Miners still own the land, and will no matter what happens. So if they dont like kyle and steph they dont have to lease it back to them.

Its gonna be a few more years before anything happens to Paragon.
 
you HAVE to own the land, like i said on the other post, otherwise your right to access it is in jeopardy EVERYDAY!!!!
 
:shaking:

Owning the land doesn't mean shit. They'll still shut you down. Or are you not paying attention?
 
What am i missing? had Overland owned paragon park...they would still be there. or would have been offered a sizeable amount for the purchase there of. But now....they are S.O.L.


Now that i AM paying attention, it seems that they negotiated a VERY poor lease agreement.
 
saf-t scissors said:
:shaking:
Owning the land doesn't mean shit. They'll still shut you down. Or are you not paying attention?
Click to expand...

Yup. Not these days at least. Whether by eco or corporate lobbying and pushing.
And kyle deserves every bit of that 50k. What a bunch of (in the end) worthless political bs. I can't believe they've taken over the badlands though.
 
yeah, there are some RIDICULOUS enviromental laws that can jepeordize your ownership rights but this comes down to eminant domain, not an enviromental issue. Notice that the original owners are still in possesion of the land. Paragon isnt barred from the land because of the enviromental impact, it's because they failed to meet their contractual obligations, or atleast, failed to prove otherwise.

I agree that essentually, its all political BS.
 
No, the DENR or EPA can shut you down. You can own the land all you want, but they can prevent you from wheeling on it. They've already shut down... what, four or five different private areas in the last year or so.
 
saf-t scissors said:
No, the DENR or EPA can shut you down.
Click to expand...

http://sovereignty.net/p/land/landusetutorial.htm

The United Nations Conference on Human Settlements (HABITAT I) met in Vancouver, British Columbia in 1976. Agenda Item 10 of the conference report was entitled simply "Land." Here is an excerpt from the Preamble to that item:

"Land...cannot be treated as an ordinary asset, controlled by individuals and subject to the pressures and inefficiencies of the market. Private land ownership is also a principal instrument of accumulation and concentration of wealth and therefore contributes to social injustice; if unchecked, it may become a major obstacle in the planning and implementation of development schemes. Public control of land use is therefore indispensable...."
This policy document was agreed to by the United States. Among the U.S. delegates were William K. Reilly, former EPA Administrator, and Carla Hill, former Trade Negotiator in the Bush Administration. Since the mid 1970s, both the United Nations and the United States have been moving toward ever-tightening "public" control of land use.
 
Habitat I has nothing to do with US laws. perhaps you are refering to The Clean Water act of 1972 and The endangered species act of 1973.

This still has nothing to do with why Overland was kicked outta paragon.

"every man has a property in his own person; this nobody has any right to but himself" ~John Locke.

From my understanding, Overland had not violated any of the EPA or DENR policies, there for they had no right to deny them use of the property. Had they OWNED the land, they would still be on it. If they were in violation of any enviromental policies, owning the land would put them in a better position to fight it.

The US constitution give you certain unalienable rights. Among these rights is your natural rights. This is the right to own property.

The NC constitution also grants us the same rights:

"That there are certain natural rights, of which men, when they form a social compact, cannot deprive or divest their posterity, among which are the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety."

No...the government cannot stop you from owning property, they cannot take it away. IN NC, you cannot stop a man from wheeling (pursing his happiness on his private property) In all the cases such as Ocie Mills (convicted because of Jury Tampering by the EPA!), John Poszgai, and Bill Ellen (among several others) the denial of use of privately owned land was undeniably unconstitutional.

They cannot take your land without fair compensation. But...if you are a tennant, you can be evicted just because the owner doesnt want you there anymore.

The principle behind Item 10 of the Habitat I forum is SOCIALIST in its nature. It suggests that you have no right to own property. That may be true in other parts of the world but our founding fathers held the view that owning property was equal to free speech!
 
BigRedB2 said:
Blah blah blah unconstitutional blah blah blah
Click to expand...

Just keep telling yourself that. It won't help you when the government files suit against you for contaminating the public's water supply. :shaking:
 
Why do you keep getting off topic? The Gov is not who is evicting Overland.
 
BigRedB2 said:
you HAVE to own the land, like i said on the other post, otherwise your right to access it is in jeopardy EVERYDAY!!!!
Click to expand...


Who is changing the subject?
 
saf-t scissors said:
Who is changing the subject?
Click to expand...

How is that off subject? if Overland owned the land that paragon is own, they wouldnt be getting evicted by the landowner (i hope they wouldnt evict themselves).


saf-t scissors said:
No, the DENR or EPA can shut you down. You can own the land all you want, but they can prevent you from wheeling on it. They've already shut down... what, four or five different private areas in the last year or so.
Click to expand...

The EPA and DENR have no place in this conversation.



saf-t scissors said:
:shaking:
Owning the land doesn't mean shit. They'll still shut you down. Or are you not paying attention?
Click to expand...

who are you, dale gribble?

saf-t scissors said:
Just keep telling yourself that. It won't help you when the government files suit against you for contaminating the public's water supply. :shaking:
Click to expand...

Again with the dale gribble stuff


I was pointing out the IMPORTANCE of owning your land if your going to have a private OHV. Completely ON TOPIC.
 
BigRedB2 said:
I was pointing out the IMPORTANCE of owning your land if your going to have a private OHV. Completely ON TOPIC.
Click to expand...

...and, as a direct reply to that, it was pointed out that owning the land does NOT get you out of potential troube, it just eliminates one possibility. Seems pretty on topic to me.

I think somebody's having a bad case of the Mondays... :flipoff2:
 
BigRedB2 said:
Why do you keep getting off topic? The Gov is not who is evicting Overland.
Click to expand...

In the end, yes they were. And his point is (and it's a very valid and proven one) that it doesn't matter whether you own the land or not, if the .gov or a large corp working with the gov wants the land...you're done with. Eminent domain, environmental damages, made up lease delinquencies, etc...best of luck fighting it.
 
RatLabGuy said:
...and, as a direct reply to that, it was pointed out that owning the land does NOT get you out of potential troube, it just eliminates one possibility. Seems pretty on topic to me.
I think somebody's having a bad case of the Mondays... :flipoff2:
Click to expand...

lol, yeah. mondays suck. but i think ive been arguin a losing battle here since saturday.

Sheesh...Politics, religion and now Land Use policies: things not to talk about in a bar.
 
BigRedB2 said:
...and, as a direct reply to that, it was pointed out that owning the land does NOT get you out of potential troube, it just eliminates one possibility. Seems pretty on topic to me.
I think somebody's having a bad case of the Mondays...
lol, yeah. mondays suck. but i think ive been arguin a losing battle here since saturday.

Sheesh...Politics, religion and now Land Use policies: things not to talk about in a bar.


The Gov and Big Corp is gone. The fact of the matter is, the land owner does not want paragon there anymore.


Am i under the impression that you guys are okay with eminant domain? are you guys defending it? A 4x4 forum is that last place i you would expect to find Hobbism.
Click to expand...


It looks like possibly the only information you have on this specific subject is the article linked here...

Jist of it is, guy who owned the land is also a partner of gladstone corp. The company that (was) building the airport. Also happened to have a local law firm, he and judge were cronies as well as one of the partners in his firm being the clerk of courts. The state/county was putting up millions for this project. One of the large reasons for booting the knosps was "damage to the land". Ever been to paragon? Obvious bullshit.

Research it some more before calling everyone out. I don't see where anyone is supporting eminent domain either?
 
braxton357 said:
In the end, yes they were. And his point is (and it's a very valid and proven one) that it doesn't matter whether you own the land or not, if the .gov or a large corp working with the gov wants the land...you're done with. Eminent domain, environmental damages, made up lease delinquencies, etc...best of luck fighting it.
Click to expand...

Don't forget about nonprofits acting "in the public's interest". Let's say the DENR, EPA, etc is fine with you and whatever you're doing with your land. That doesn't stop these other groups from naming you and the government as a party to a lawsuit alleging that you're doing environmental harm and that the gov is negligent in their duty to prevent you from doing so.

They don't want your land, they just want to be able to tell you what you can and can't do with it.

It's going on right now, and it's not likely to change in the future. So all this talk about how "if only we owned the land!" is simply naive.
 
braxton357 said:
It looks like possibly the only information you have on this specific subject is the article linked here...
Jist of it is, guy who owned the land is also a partner of gladstone corp. The company that (was) building the airport. Also happened to have a local law firm, he and judge were cronies as well as one of the partners in his firm being the clerk of courts. The state/county was putting up millions for this project. One of the large reasons for booting the knosps was "damage to the land". Ever been to paragon? Obvious bullshit.
Research it some more before calling everyone out. I don't see where anyone is supporting eminent domain either?
Click to expand...

Can you post a link that gives specific details about what is happening?

According to this link http://www.rrorc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32683

(original article no longer available) The judge and the lawyer for Gladstone are not friendly at all?
http://origin-www.courts.state.pa.us/OpPosting/Superior/out/A06036_08.pdf
more on the judge


I also see no mention of enviromental charges
http://origin-www.courts.state.pa.us/opposting/superior/out/a06036_08.pdf

I dont see a gov't conspiracy here. I see the opposite of what you say.
 
Paragon in a nutshell

Overland INC. leases land long term from the Pennsylvania Coal miners Association.

PACMA gets an offer from Gladstone execs for purchase of said land. (in my opinion a government swindle) For the building of a cargo airport.

PACMA claps their hands and snaps their fingers and poof somehow kyle and steph are late on lease payments insurance payments and some other things.

Gladstone rolls up their sleeves to do months worth of paperwork in just a few hours using their inexhaustable supply of interns and co-ops.

Gladstone recieves a multimillion dollar grant(doesnt have to be payed back like a loan) from the government for testing and surveing land for this business venture.

Gladstone contacts the local area judge whome years earlier they had a deal with.

FLASHBACK : Gladstone builds a substandard Teen Rehabilitation and Detention center with Govt Grants again. Local judge sends lots and lots of bad little boys and girls to these places and gets large kickbacks from GASP Gladstone

FLASHFORWARD: Judge settles dispute with cease and desist operations of Paragon.

paragon tells the judge to go sit on a pinaple and spin. They go to a higher court.

Higher court decides with paragon and allows them to operate while Gladstone is getting their things together.

Gladstone gets everything together and Overland INC is finally asked to leave

present day
of the 8 Gladstone Execs in this deal 7 are awaiting federal charges(I believe I know for a fact one is) and one is dead. One has sold all shares of Gladstones Airport project to some unknown investor.

EPA had NOTHING to do with this whole thing

Government had NOTHING to do with this whole thing except to fund Gladstone and give the judge judicial powers.

The funny thing is the PA cola miners Assoc. has several thousand acres of land in that region. I know of at least two traces of two to three hundred acres that are flatter and more suited to an airoprt.
paragon was supposedly choosen because it would fail as an airoprt and it would be kept silent in that tiny little town by the pocket judge and small media attention. Fortunately Kyle and Steph monkey wreneched that plan.


So you see
everyone is wrong and everyone is right
EPA had nothing to do with this
The govt can take your land ffor emminent domain but that didnt happen here
the govt is NOT corrupt but the people in it are
and toaster struedels really do taste better than pop tarts.

mmm breakfast
:beer:
 
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