Psssst....hey, buddy, got a VIN number for sale?

kaiser715

kaiser715

Doing hard time
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Location
7, Pocket, NC
Fall of an Icon: Aberdeen Car Restoration Shop Shut Down by State Agents

After receiving a litany of complaints, DMV investigators say they visited Icon Customs last month to find that owner George Fredericks had switched VIN numbers between vehicles at his shop, or removed them completely.

The DMV also alleges that customers made payments toward work that was never completed; and that vehicles delivered in serviceable condition have since been dismantled. The agency is also investigating Wheels For Valor, an apprenticeship training program that Icon Customs attempted to start for local veterans in 2015.

As for George? He has said he "made some bad management business decisions to try to keep the doors open and finish projects."

Notable comment: "I was lied to over the course of a deployment and throughout two PCS moves. My dream of putting the car that I have had for 17 years back on the road has been crushed. George pitched this Wheels from Valor program to me in 2015 and he definitely manipulated my emotions."
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That's some low down shit right there!
 
I know there were a lot of issues that didn't help his case, but on the multiple VIN issues...I wonder how many rigs out there that could get hammered. Specifically thinking 73-79 ford trucks...cab swap, the data sticker could have one VIN, swap a drivers door, the warranty plate would have another VIN on it...and the frame from the original truck would have a VIN stamped on it from the factory. Damn near anyone replacing those parts if they're rusty or doing a restoration would be at fault. What's protocol there??? Submit the titles to the state and let them issue a VIN???
 
UTfball68 said:
I know there were a lot of issues that didn't help his case, but on the multiple VIN issues...I wonder how many rigs out there that could get hammered. Specifically thinking 73-79 ford trucks...cab swap, the data sticker could have one VIN, swap a drivers door, the warranty plate would have another VIN on it...and the frame from the original truck would have a VIN stamped on it from the factory. Damn near anyone replacing those parts if they're rusty or doing a restoration would be at fault. What's protocol there??? Submit the titles to the state and let them issue a VIN???
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Im restoring a 1st gen mustang.
"Official" Vin placement is top of drivers inner fender. My nner fender was rusted out beyond (reasonable) repair. The aftermarket company used to have a deal where you cut your VIN section out and sent it to them, and they stamped your new fender with the correct VIN. Feds cracked down on them and deemed this illegal. So now...I want my vehicle to be legal and the new fender is unstampded. SC says I cant stamp the VIN and their official stance is, "Must leave the section containing the VIN in place and replace the metal sections around it."...ooooooook. So it will levatate in the air while the new section is grafted into place.
 
UTfball68 said:
I know there were a lot of issues that didn't help his case, but on the multiple VIN issues...I wonder how many rigs out there that could get hammered. Specifically thinking 73-79 ford trucks...cab swap, the data sticker could have one VIN, swap a drivers door, the warranty plate would have another VIN on it...and the frame from the original truck would have a VIN stamped on it from the factory. Damn near anyone replacing those parts if they're rusty or doing a restoration would be at fault. What's protocol there??? Submit the titles to the state and let them issue a VIN???
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Thats it exactly. You call dmv license and theft bureau get with an inspector, they will come out verify that you have a valid title for all your separate pieces like a cab or frame for example. Theyll verify the vins are correct for the titles and nothing is reported stolen, then you get a temporary registration, after you assemble frankentruck they come back out to re verify and issue a new title with a new ncdmv vin.

I knew a guy who had a s10 with a rusty frame and a 4x4 dent side ford chassis. He asked about the legality of putting the good s10 cab on the ford frame to build a wheeling truggy. That was the answer he got. Said it would be listed as a 2010 custom vehicle. Ultimately he found a dentside part truck and just swapped cabs without doing anything else, but legally your supposed to turn something like that over and get the new vin.

However I think most people not running a shitty business or a chop shop arent even on the radar.

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So historically when I've looked it up or discussed with DMV, I really only inquired about the title...and the response I got was it needed to match a 'permanent' VIN location, in my above example...does that mean only frame stamped VIN matters...that's what I always assumed. Or to be 100% compliant, would that then include any place the factory placed a VIN had to tie out??? Your example would elude to the latter. And then what would that mean for a restoration where you transfer the plates/tags to the new body part??? Would that technically be 'tampering'? I get it, 1 out of a million shot anyone that could prevent registration would care enough to look, but I'd generally be that one.
 
UTfball68 said:
So historically when I've looked it up or discussed with DMV, I really only inquired about the title...and the response I got was it needed to match a 'permanent' VIN location, in my above example...does that mean only frame stamped VIN matters...that's what I always assumed. Or to be 100% compliant, would that then include any place the factory placed a VIN had to tie out??? Your example would elude to the latter. And then what would that mean for a restoration where you transfer the plates/tags to the new body part??? Would that technically be 'tampering'? I get it, 1 out of a million shot anyone that could prevent registration would care enough to look, but I'd generally be that one.
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Im guessing that to be 1000% legal you'd have to present the title for your donor door, donor cab, and donor chassis in your above example. Let dmv work their magic and have a custom vin on your resto.

If you were to do such a swap under the table , I dont know which vin would be better to title it as otherwise, frame vin is most permanent as you say but generally harder to see, a door or data plate would be easier to see, but also easier to forge.

And yea, i think any kind of messing with any vin tag is considered tampering. Even if you remove it and reattach it to the exact same vehicle it came off of could be considered tampering, which is why newer vehicles use special shaped rivets.

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Tim C said:
Thats it exactly. You call dmv license and theft bureau get with an inspector, they will come out verify that you have a valid title for all your separate pieces like a cab or frame for example. Theyll verify the vins are correct for the titles and nothing is reported stolen, then you get a temporary registration, after you assemble frankentruck they come back out to re verify and issue a new title with a new ncdmv vin.

I knew a guy who had a s10 with a rusty frame and a 4x4 dent side ford chassis. He asked about the legality of putting the good s10 cab on the ford frame to build a wheeling truggy. That was the answer he got. Said it would be listed as a 2010 custom vehicle. Ultimately he found a dentside part truck and just swapped cabs without doing anything else, but legally your supposed to turn something like that over and get the new vin.

However I think most people not running a shitty business or a chop shop arent even on the radar.

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I'd think that if you ended up w/ a new VIN and title that would have serious repercussions. Like if you were repairin gan old Mustang, who wants a '67 to have a 2017 labeled title?
More importantly, this would really screw with insurance rates (surely they either would not know how to classify it, or it would be a lot higher b/c it is now a "new" vehicle), and make emissions and annual inspections a clusterfuck. A '74 vehicle has no emissions and minimum safety. A 2017 will require OBDII and in some states, a sniff test, and to have all 2017 emissions equipment installed etc.
 
RatLabGuy said:
I'd think that if you ended up w/ a new VIN and title that would have serious repercussions. Like if you were repairin gan old Mustang, who wants a '67 to have a 2017 labeled title?
More importantly, this would really screw with insurance rates (surely they either would not know how to classify it, or it would be a lot higher b/c it is now a "new" vehicle), and make emissions and annual inspections a clusterfuck. A '74 vehicle has no emissions and minimum safety. A 2017 will require OBDII and in some states, a sniff test, and to have all 2017 emissions equipment installed etc.
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The way it was explained to my friend was that the title would list it as a custom built vehicle for the year it was completed, so itd be a 2017 custom now. Same as if you built a kit car or dune buggy for example. From what he was lead to believe even though its a 2017, since its a custom there would be no obd2 emissions testing. Whether it would need to have yearly safety only inspections im not sure about. Or it may be set up in the database where custom or home built vehicles are exempt from any inspections like 35 + year old vehicles are now. I know when i get the tag renewal notice for both my 67 Fairlane and my 78 f150 it says in capital red letters under the inspection due by box: NOT REQUIRED. They did tell him theyd have to come out and give it an inspection before they would issue the new vin and title after it was made road worthy.

Edited to add: all the above you were concerned about is probably exactly why most people just swap over the vin tag and roll with it. Im sure the value of your 67 mustang is less if its titled as a Frankenstein. And who knows about the insurance, theyre surely not out to be on your side.

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Tim C said:
The way it was explained to my friend was that the title would list it as a custom built vehicle for the year it was completed, so itd be a 2017 custom now. Same as if you built a kit car or dune buggy for example. From what he was lead to believe even though its a 2017, since its a custom there would be no obd2 emissions testing. Whether it would need to have yearly safety only inspections im not sure about. Or it may be set up in the database where custom or home built vehicles are exempt from any inspections like 35 + year old vehicles are now. I know when i get the tag renewal notice for both my 67 Fairlane and my 78 f150 it says in capital red letters under the inspection due by box: NOT REQUIRED. They did tell him theyd have to come out and give it an inspection before they would issue the new vin and title after it was made road worthy.

Edited to add: all the above you were concerned about is probably exactly why most people just swap over the vin tag and roll with it. Im sure the value of your 67 mustang is less if its titled as a Frankenstein. And who knows about the insurance, theyre surely not out to be on your side.

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Yeah but where the real fuckage comes in its when you move and change states.
If you bring that vehicle to MD, it will get a 2017 title, and you will not to be able to qualify for Historic tags, which means you cannot get a greatly reduced registration fee and will be required to have a full vehicle inspection etc and biannual emissions tests.
I can already see the discussion standing in line at the MVA.
"This has a 2017 title, that will be $180 + 6% of the value please, and you have to get it inspected and an OBDII test."
"No, it's really a '74 pickup and is never driven. I want Historic tags for $51 and minimum value please. And fuck your inspection, catalytic converters didn't exist in 1974."
"I'm sorry sir, this title says 2017. That will be $500 total please, an nor registration until you pass inspection"
"!@#$..."

Then with insurance
"I'm sorry sir, I don't have a classification for your 2017 Custom Vehicle. All I can do is give you minimum liability insurance."
"But it's a restored truck worth at least $10,000 (bro tax...)"
"You say that - but I have no way of knowing. Sorry, no coverage."

It's dumbs shit like this that basically force people to do illegal things.
 
somebody please post up the NCDMV rules since my connection is too bad to get to it right now. they allow only 1 or 2 places in NC to restamp VINs (restamping/transferring yourself is a felony) and you can get bonded titles for frankenvehicles too.

btw, mine just came back after the 3 year waiting period.

have you insurance company walk you through the process, you need them to get you started
 
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