Re-evaluating Equipment Use

[DRaider90]

Its been made obvious there are a good amount of people that don't agree with us putting up w-beam metal guard rail all over the Forest. And while I don't like the guard rail either, I see it as a necessary evil to help keep the trails open. And up until the recent work weekend the only thing we had used our Bobcat rentals for was Guard Rail Install. 3 Rentals were dedicated to rail install.

I know most people weren't around on Friday, but I logged about 4 hours (Chris spotted me, and logged maybe 45 minutes) on the T-190 cleaning out and completely re-designing a tail ditch. It was more rewarding digging that tail ditch out, and re-shaping it than all the guard rail we installed combined. And by looking at the 20 or so item list of work to do, there is a lot of work for equipment outside of installing guard rail.

Some may remember CORE donated/purchased a beefy 2-Man Earth Quake Auger with 9" Bit for us to use installing guard rail. And from what I heard from the group that used it last weekend, it worked well installing rail. It has worked well for us also, but we have usually opted to rent equipment for the large amounts of guard rail. In the future if we have to put up LARGE amounts of rail, a Bobcat with an Auger will still be ideal. But for the amount of rail that needs to be installed, in many various places we need to start utilizing the donated Auger more often.

So to summarize it, for future guard rail install we will utilize the 2-Man Auger we have when possible and use our equipment rentals for other more favorable projects. And beyond that in the future, we will separate the equipment from the main work crews to increase our productivity level. We will be also renting cheaper (and more rock friendly) wheeled machines when possible to make every dollar count. Let me know what you think about this, and unless there is some great opposition this will be our new focus for equipment.

 

[shawn]

What has the FS said about going back to welded wire fencing instead of guard rail?

B/C several of the guard rail installations involved running new guard rail between 10yo sections of 3ft high rolled wire fence.

Fence goes up faster, can be installed with hand tools, isn't noticeable at 20 yds, and you could buy a shitload of it for what one day's skidloader rental costs.

 

[Black Bear]

isn't noticeable at 20 yds,

if atv'rs cant see it at speed, someone is going to get hurt.


I really like Derrick's fence idea of reusing the old wood from the corduroy bridges.

 

[drowe512]

I was in the group working the 2 man auger last time and it worked fine. A 4 man team works pretty good, but 6 men would have an easier time. The auger jerks you around a bit, the lining bar and post hole diggers are just plain hard work. A little break would be appreciated. Also with 6 men we can be a little safer and have look outs. If there was a plan for the auger, such as a list of sites pre marked and with the guard rail in place that group could just move from one to the other. It needs to be ordered in the most efficient way, trailwise, and not jump all over the forest doing them in the FS priority.

 

[DRaider90]

What has the FS said about going back to welded wire fencing instead of guard rail?

B/C several of the guard rail installations involved running new guard rail between 10yo sections of 3ft high rolled wire fence.

Fence goes up faster, can be installed with hand tools, isn't noticeable at 20 yds, and you could buy a shitload of it for what one day's skidloader rental costs.

I am guessing you are talking about what the Forest Service refers to as "Hog Wire Fence". Since the first workday we were involved in, they have had us removing the wire fence. I haven't asked why, but can find out. Something tells me though if they are having us rip it out, I don't see them going back to using it. But its worth a shot.

I get the point that the wire fence would save money on equipment rentals, but that is going by the logic that the only thing we use the equipment for is guard rail install. The whole point of my initial post was that we will get away from using the equipment to install rail and use it for jobs that we can't do by hand. So wire fence would save money on occasions, but with using equipment for other projects we will have other reasons to rent equipment.

if atv'rs cant see it at speed, someone is going to get hurt.
I really like Derrick's fence idea of reusing the old wood from the corduroy bridges.

This is true about the ATVs. And using old wood from corduroy bridges is a great idea. It all depends on a way to turn it into a fence, and how much "old wood" the forest service ends up with. I know they have a lot of busted wood from the split rail, but I am not sure about the corduroy.

I was in the group working the 2 man auger last time and it worked fine. A 4 man team works pretty good, but 6 men would have an easier time. The auger jerks you around a bit, the lining bar and post hole diggers are just plain hard work. A little break would be appreciated. Also with 6 men we can be a little safer and have look outs. If there was a plan for the auger, such as a list of sites pre marked and with the guard rail in place that group could just move from one to the other. It needs to be ordered in the most efficient way, trailwise, and not jump all over the forest doing them in the FS priority.

This is essentially what I was trying to get at. If we add 2 more men and make it a 6 man team, and have them dedicated to just guard rail install the amount of rail installed would be up to par. This would allow a separate group to work with the equipment, or work on other areas. Equipment could then be used for the breaking up of rock, grading/draining mud holes/re-shaping tail ditches, armoring areas with rock, removing busted culverts etc. All of the above are still on the list.

I am not looking directly for an immediate replacement for the guard rail, the Forest Service has said essentially if we don't like it we can go else where. The plan to focus guard rail install on using the 2-man auger, and equipment on others jobs will get things moving in the right direction. So at least we can say our rental money is going toward projects everyone can agree on that need to get done, instead of something most people oppose being done. And while we are going down this path we can present ideas like the corduroy logs to the Forest Service and work towards an alternative to guard rail. I know its smaller steps forward than some would like, but small steps forward are better than steps backward.

 

[Black Bear]

We have had pretty good success with the tow behind auger.. its nothing like the bobcat or a power auger on a tractor but it got the job done and wasn't very jerky when it bound up, and it was cheap to rent.

 

[DRaider90]

We have had pretty good success with the tow behind auger.. its nothing like the bobcat or a power auger on a tractor but it got the job done and wasn't very jerky when it bound up, and it was cheap to rent.

This is a good option to consider when we have large amounts of rail to install.

The only issue with the tow behind or the auger on a tractor is when you hit rocky areas its stopped dead. This is the same issue with the 2-man auger, and why we were renting Bobcats w/ Augers. Because when we tag teamed the guard rail install last December the Bobcat had to go back behind the tractor w/auger and finish drilling holes that got rocky.

Maybe if we found a rental place that offers rock bits for a pull behind Auger it would help. This is about the design of a regular auger bit (its actually the exact on one the 2-man auger):

Here is an auger rock bit:

If the rental of a pull behind auger w/ rock bit would still be cheaper than a Bobcat rental that would save us money even in the situations when we would usually rent a Bobcat for large guard rail install projects. That would allow us to use the money toward more Bobcat rentals for jobs like culverts, mud holes, tail ditches, etc.

 

[Black Bear]

T Because when we tag teamed the guard rail install last December the Bobcat had to go back behind the tractor w/auger and finish drilling holes that got rocky.

meh, that was only a couple holes dept was more of an issue, and if i recall the last hole gave the bobcat a run for its money.

I really like a smaller tractor for trail work, its small enough to go anywhere at URE, but has enough power to dig holes, or replace a culvert. Its never let us down for the trail work we have done in the last couple years.

 

[DRaider90]

What has the FS said about going back to welded wire fencing instead of guard rail?

B/C several of the guard rail installations involved running new guard rail between 10yo sections of 3ft high rolled wire fence.

Fence goes up faster, can be installed with hand tools, isn't noticeable at 20 yds, and you could buy a shitload of it for what one day's skidloader rental costs.

I asked about the hog wire, and here is the answer I got:

In regards to hog wire, it is VERY unsafe and not visible at night. Last thing I need is someone to cut their head off running into wire along the trail. So, the answer is a very clear NO on the hog wire.

 

[DRaider90]

And here is what she said about the 6x6 wood railing:

Wood railing is fine (what we are calling guiderail) and I have no problem with using that instead. In fact I rather prefer it over the metal guardrail. It was simply a financial matter as you have to install a post every 8 feet for the wood rail system. This can be very labor intensive and expensive.