Removing old floor/underlayment...

RatLabGuy

RatLabGuy

You look like a monkey and smell like one too
Joined
May 18, 2005
Location
Churchville, MD
Not the least bit 4x4 but hey that's what chat is about, right?
Replacing flooring in the kitchen/dining room w/ laminate. Long story short, loks like just building on top of old floor not an option b/c of total height problems.
So I need to remove the original linoleum which looks to be on some kind of plywood, which rests on the subfloor (2x6 diagonal slats, built '64 back when houses had real floors). It's like this so the total height aligns w/ hardwood elswhere in the house.
Cuttin ga pulling this up will be a pain for doable. Problem I'm seeing though is the cabinets/couner/bar etc... they're built on top of this floor I wish to remove. Sicne removing all cainets etc from the floor is not a feasible option, I plan to cut around them, then align new floor w/ this height.
However I need a suggestion for how exactly to do this cutting. I can cut up most of the floor w/ a SKill saw set to the exact depth; however can't really get the blade very close to the cabinets b/c of the bulk of the saw body/guide etc. Any ideas?
What makes it even more difficult is that the cabinets have the classic "overhang" where the base is smalleer than the cabinet so that the door is sitting out farther, i.e. whatever tool will have to fit under this to cut close to the edge. I figure if I can get w/in 1/2" then the rough transition can be covered w/ a moulding later.
I am thinking something similar to a cutoff wheel but for wood and a selectable depth?
Absolute worse case, I will just SkillSaw it 2" away and build up the new underlayment to this same level so the laminate is again higher covering both, thats just not ideal b/c that leaves an 11mm transition @ doorways.
 
I see only two ways to do it. Either pull everything up (base cabs and all) and put down the new floor, or get a threshold for each door to make up the difference.

Because working around those cabinets is going to be a PITA, and you'll likely tear them up in the process.

11mm? WTF did you find a metric tape measure?
 
Be careful sawing up an old floor like that it probably contains asbestos. I would just cover over the whole thing.
My dining room was carpet and I put in hardwoods, the threshold between it and the kitchen is probably over 1/2 inch drop. It's a curved/tapered piece about 2 inches wide and you hardly notice it, too sloped to stump your toe or anything.
 
laminant

I would not pull the old flooring up. The accesories for laminant flooring takes care of the difference in height. There is a transition strip for the joining of the two. I just did it in my living room/ entrance area. Looks great and you will not notice the difference in height.
 
I'm familar w/ the traditional transitional strips, for instance I used one on the bathroom when I tiled the floor there, tht left it a good 1/2-5/8" above the hardwood. We notice that transition and its smaller than we're talking about here.
1" just seems awefully big, a noticible step up. I have not seen a transition intended for that much.

re: why 11 mm? Its a European company, as 90% of laminate makers are. Ironically this one in particular (QuickStep Quadra) is manufactired in Thomasville, but I had to have it shipped to me from FL. Go figure. It's an 8 mm laminate + 3 mm pad.
For those metrically challenged, 11 mm is 0.433 inches or roughly just a hair under 7/16th. Note I work in a research lab and 90% of our rulers are metric or both.

re:asbestos - yes, I wondered about that, but this is a linoleum; Until yesterday there was a layer of vinyl on top of it (glued to 1/4" ply). Originally I wasn't even considering pull up anything b/c I thought the original was the flat glue-down tiles (have them in basement and bottom layer of 2 bathrooms), was surprised to find this. After soem research, asbestos was used primarily in tile/fibrous products, not in sheet flooring like this linoleum, so I feel okay tearing it up. Looks to have some kind of canvas/terry-cloth backing, which is aparently common for this.

I'm wondering about a cutoff tool like this from HF
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=90114
but w/ a small blade like these if that grinding blade gets messy
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=42805
 
laminant

The flooring should not be over 3/8's thick. I must not have a very clear image of what you are doing.
 
If you realy want to pull your old sub floor get you some good sharp wood chisels. I will take a little time to do it clean but with a good sharp chisel you can cut the sub flooring under the cabnets pretty close and clean. Enjoy I have my fill of remodeling but sure have learned a few hack trick along the way. :D
 
LARRY SMITH said:
The flooring should not be over 3/8's thick. I must not have a very clear image of what you are doing.
Click to expand...

I kinda skipped all the background details to get to the point. here's more of the deal, to clarify.
House is 40 y/o ranch style, long and narrow. Joists run the short length, w/ a long beam that runs the long length in the middle, this beam is supported every 6' or so by metal poles off of the basement floor. Pretty typical setup.
Well problem is over the 40 years the whole floor has sagged (to be expected), except where that beam is in the middle b/c of its support form below. This has left a subtle "hump", maybe 1/4"-3/8" tall w/ maybe 14" sides on it running the whole length of house. POs had it pretty well concealed w/ carpet in dining room and extra layer of vinyl in kitchen, it falls along a wall elsewhere.
So thsi is where I am stuck. To put in the laminate, and w/o going *down* to fix it, I have to get this flat first. Since its a hump, I have to build up on either side until much closer to level, commonly aparently folks use shingles or similar, in cobo w/ leveling cement. By the time I do this the filler will add ~1/4-3/8" along transition points
Then I'll have to cover it all w/ plywood, chose 3/8" to hold up over small gaps etc. Once that gives a new "subfloor", laminate and paddin gare another 11mm... so total is right close to 1".
That's why I was considering pulling up the original old floor and starting 1 level lower. b/c of the linoleum layer on now I cannot sand or similarly wear down this hump. Does this make sense?

The walls are real tongue and groove wood paneling, painted now. I have also just realized that the t&g is aparently above the plywood the linoleum is on. Ergh what a pain, surrpised builder would have not put in floor covering after the walls...?
 
floor

Can you go underneath and just jack the floor level? Add braces to each floor joist as needed, you should be able to get close enough to put the laminant flooring down. I feel you will only speed the sagging process if you add the extra weight (leveling putty and plywood), over time of course.
 
LARRY SMITH said:
Can you go underneath and just jack the floor level? Add braces to each floor joist as needed, you should be able to get close enough to put the laminant flooring down. I feel you will only speed the sagging process if you add the extra weight (leveling putty and plywood), over time of course.
Click to expand...

2 problems there, had given it some thought. 1 - basically teh whole house has sagged just a little, and this is just the middle so it's where it is most noticeable. So that would take a whole bunch of jacks and quite a while to get it all to re-settle. It's not like anything is broken, just a real gradual bending over a long time.
2 - basement under the kitchen has been finished anyway, no access to the joists. Had I forseen this 2+ years ago I would have shimmed them before finishing the room. Oh well.


After some thought, I'm wondeirng if it'd be feasible to just try and pull up the linoleum off of the plywood underlayment. It dosn't go under cabinets/walls, just the plywood does. That woudl start me off on wood, which I could sand down w/ 30 grit or something and maybe sand the whole hump down alot closer to flat, hopefully avoiding needing 1/4"+ filler, plus starting me off a little lower than the hardwood level.
Think it's feasible to pull that stuff up? What kind of glue was used in the 60s??
 
See if you can rent a toe kick saw. They are made specifically for cutting under the cabinet overhang. Basically they look like a glorified drill motor with about a 3-1/2" skil saw blade on the end of a shaft.
 
Haha, I was just looking at one on eBay. Maybe can rent one too.
However I may have another snag, perhaps somebody knows a bit on the topic.
I've been calling the flooring linoleum but I don't know for sure, it's pretty stiff but not like brittle, definitely a sheeting product. Dosn't feel like vinyl, at least not today's stuff. Was vinyl around for floors in '64? Anyway, after some reading i'm seeing that the mastic used in most flooring back then had asbestos. Normally I wouldn't care, but now we have a 10 month old baby. Hum.
Should I get it tested? how long does that take, and what are the total implications if it comes back positive?
Oh btw you can see a pic here. It has remnants of some sort of black foam, which aparently has been scraped off.
http://www.rewazule.com/home_projects/floor_replacement/dining_room_floor.jpg

So maybe back to not removing it? If I have to leave it, hows thsi for an idea. Use leveling cement to flatten out the really big ridges, and screw 3/8 ply on top of it, then let that sit and walk on it for a wekk or so. This will leave my hump still in the ply. Then, I take a drum sander w/ 30 grit and sand down the hump in the plywood, basically making it level on top even though its technically bowed on bottom. Then I can do the laminate.
Would taht be crazy?
 
If it is asbestos then leave it alone. Stirring it up would not be good at all for the young one. When they come to remove asbestos from housing it looks like the scene from E.T., only twice as bad. I'd say your best bet was to get a consultant to look and advise you from there. :) Josh
 
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