Simple question to spark a debate...

Jody Treadway

Croc wearing fool
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Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Location
Hendersonville, NC
For the sake of debate and conversation:

With the onset of the ACA (Obamacare) my wife and I are going to be paying literally double what we currently pay if we decide to stay with BCBS. We are 36 and 35, healthy, no tobacco use, no pre-existing conditions and hard workers. I can't get anywhere trying to log onto Healthcare.gov to see what our rates will be in the open marketplace.

So, why don't we just pay the $95 fine and not have health insurance? It seems too easy NOT to have insurance. So what is the hidden true penalty for not having health insurance after January 1st?
 
You would be better off sitting at home and doing nothing, then they will just GIVE you healthcare (or subsidize it so it is MUCH cheaper). (<<SARCASM)

We were paying about $350/month for BCBS for my wife, myself, and our son, with Obamacare I think it will be lower, just based on our income.
 
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Are you self insured?
 
So, why don't we just pay the $95 fine and not have health insurance? It seems too easy NOT to have insurance. So what is the hidden true penalty for not having health insurance after January 1st?


Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

The entire system depends on young, healthy, affluent people subsidizing everyone else. Our costs also went up substantially... and not only that, but the low-cost, high-deductible plans (which, properly described, are "insurance", not "healthcare"), have been outlawed by the ACA.
 
Medical debt is the #1 cause if bankruptcy in America.




If you get in a wreck and are taken to the hospital with no insurance, you won't be able to apply before the bills start coming in.

 
Here's what I know (and I posted this somewhere else)...by reneweing my company's BCBS contract for 2 years as of Dec 1, our increase is only 25%. Had I waited until Jan 1, it would have doubled. Here's what else I know, currently my company pays 100% of the insurance cost for an individual ($370), 88% for and employee and spouse ($981) and 84% for an employee and family ($1501). Those are the premiums we pay monthly...and we're forking over about 36k a month currently. Now what we COULD do, is drop insurance completely and pay an annual fine of about $1000/employee, which would be about the same cost to the company as 2 months worth of insurance premiums. You tell me how many companies are gonna be dropping benefits and just taking the fine. Luckily, we renewed in time and even at 25% the GM wanted to increase employee contribution...this late in the game I told he'd have complete anarchy taking an additional $150-200/mo out of everybody's check...instead we should just eat the couple tenths of a percentage in our quarterly bonuses. So we'll be prepping the plant for the next year that they need to prepare to pay more for insurance coverage a year from now...and even more so in 2 years when our contract expires and their premiums are doubled or tripled.


Really what I need to do is figure out who voted for BO and just increase their deductions for the whole plant.
 
If it's not his fault.

If it's your fault the personal injury protection insurance only covers passengers and the other vehicles passengers.


And then your premiums will sky rocket or you'll get dropped.
 
You can apply on the way to the hospital and can't be denied.
You can be stabilized at the hospital with your organs hanging out of your chest and apply.
It's like applying for car insurance in the junkyard, except they can still tell you no.

The while system was designed so you'd pay the fine. They use the fine for subsidies. The government can run their insurance at a loss, no other company can. After the fine goes up and the other companies are out of business, we are left with single payer, rationed government health care. That is the end goal.

Sent while I should have been doing something constructive...
 
If it's not his fault.

If it's your fault the personal injury protection insurance only covers passengers and the other vehicles passengers.


And then your premiums will sky rocket or you'll get dropped.

ding ding ding.

Not to mention just b/c it's technically "covered" by the auto insurance, actually getting that bill paid by them is a serious endeavor, and if they fight it could take a year or more... guess who's name is on the bill and getting their credit reamed in the meantime?
 
Also, just to be clear it is currently $95 (per adult) or 1% of your income, whichever is greater. So until you make under $18,000 for the year (in which case you'd be exempt anyway) you'll pay waaay more than $180.
Plus by 2016 the flat fine and % goes up.
 
Also, just to be clear it is currently $95 (per adult) or 1% of your income, whichever is greater. So until you make under $18,000 for the year (in which case you'd be exempt anyway) you'll pay waaay more than $180.
Plus by 2016 the flat fine and % goes up.


Shorter RatLab: "Yeah, you totally save money by foregoing insurance and paying the fine."
 
Not to mention just b/c it's technically "covered" by the auto insurance, actually getting that bill paid by them is a serious endeavor


So... what's the deal? You guys all have GEICO or something?

Those fawkers tried to get me to admit fault over the phone for letting some lady run into me.
 
The government can run their insurance at a loss, no other company can. After the fine goes up and the other companies are out of business, we are left with single payer, rationed government health care. That is the end goal.


Just to be clear, there is no government insurance company everyone is signing up for.

Obamacare is a platform where all insurance companies have to play by the same rules (which have been changed).

It is a website where people can pick and choose which healthcare provider whether it's BCBS or United or any other are compared side by side so you find your "cheapest" option.
 
If you are into idealist doing-things-by-ethic discussions, here is something to think about.

From a rational, conservative finances standpoint, no question in most cases if you are young and healthy, it is a better deal to just pay the fine, and plan to pay expenses out of pocket.

However consider this. Health insurance, just like all actuarial-based insurance, is based on leveraging funding from those that are not currently creating expenses to covert he costs of those that are. Safe drivers fund the payouts for accidents, healthy people fund the payouts for health care costs.
That's just how the system works.
What's important is that your premiums are NOT paying for your own care. In fact if you do the math, if you have even just 1 major medical expense it would be many, many years to decades to covert that cost. Rather, your premiums go into a giant pool from which expenses are covered, on a gamble that the income will exceed the expenses.
So the systems have to have healthy people paying in.

What's even more important to consider, that I think most people overlook, is that over the course of your life, at some point you will need medical care. Maybe not today, maybe not in 5 years, but undoubtedly when you are old. Unless you are 100% healthy until you drop dead straight into a grave someplace, you are going to incur medical costs.
And who pays those costs then? Not you, the amount you're paying then as an old person, even though the rates may be higher, is still nowhere near the actual cost. So then you are being subsidized by the young healthy people.
So while you could just wait and pay nothing into the system now while you're young, and gamble on not "needing" it - one could say that you're just being a deadbeat freeloader, planning to live of of the contributions of everybody else later.
You know how people here bitch and moan about folks going to the ER w/o insurance and never paying the bills, driving up the cost for everybody? Pretty much the same thing.

Think of it this way - if you want to "opt out" of the healthcare system... fine, you choice. But don't plan to come back later when you need it, b/c now you're just mooching off of my dime.

Just food for thought...
 
Shorter RatLab: "Yeah, you totally save money by foregoing insurance and paying the fine."

yes, I'm just pointing out the fine is gonna be a lot more than $180.
 
ok so if it is "mooching" i am just concerned why me, as a healthy non smoking 37yo my rate with BCBS went from $129 per mo to $308 per mo?? and my daughter who is a healthy 6yo went from $60 to $140??? i havnt been to the doctor in over 2 years, i am a mechanic and wife is a county employee who has her insurance covered but before the increases her family plan was $700 per mo so we went independant, but we are not eligable for any subsidies b/c it is offered through her work and we are above the income cutoff, idk it just seems like punishment for busting my ass for 50+ hours a week and lazy bums get the same exact treatment for free and dont give me the "they didnt choose to be poor b/s" you make a choice everyday and the lifetime recipients make a choice to not get out of the rut!!

rant off

scared to death!!!!!
 
That's it in a nut shell. The people who will never and have never contributed, will get their shit for free.
 
ok so if it is "mooching" i am just concerned why me, as a healthy non smoking 37yo my rate with BCBS went from $129 per mo to $308 per mo?? and my daughter who is a healthy 6yo went from $60 to $140??? i havnt been to the doctor in over 2 years, i am a mechanic and wife is a county employee who has her insurance covered but before the increases her family plan was $700 per mo so we went independant, but we are not eligable for any subsidies b/c it is offered through her work and we are above the income cutoff, idk it just seems like punishment for busting my ass for 50+ hours a week and lazy bums get the same exact treatment for free and dont give me the "they didnt choose to be poor b/s" you make a choice everyday and the lifetime recipients make a choice to not get out of the rut!!

rant off

scared to death!!!!!

b/c you're doing your part and paying into the system.
That's actually just the point - if everybody paid in, then the rates woudl actually be pretty reasonable.

And hence the complete irony of the situation.

(now that I think of it this is a pretty good example of why communism doesn't work)
 
If you are into idealist doing-things-by-ethic discussions, here is something to think about.

From a rational, conservative finances standpoint, no question in most cases if you are young and healthy, it is a better deal to just pay the fine, and plan to pay expenses out of pocket.

However consider this. Health insurance, just like all actuarial-based insurance, is based on leveraging funding from those that are not currently creating expenses to covert he costs of those that are. Safe drivers fund the payouts for accidents, healthy people fund the payouts for health care costs.
That's just how the system works.
What's important is that your premiums are NOT paying for your own care. In fact if you do the math, if you have even just 1 major medical expense it would be many, many years to decades to covert that cost. Rather, your premiums go into a giant pool from which expenses are covered, on a gamble that the income will exceed the expenses.
So the systems have to have healthy people paying in.

What's even more important to consider, that I think most people overlook, is that over the course of your life, at some point you will need medical care. Maybe not today, maybe not in 5 years, but undoubtedly when you are old. Unless you are 100% healthy until you drop dead straight into a grave someplace, you are going to incur medical costs.
And who pays those costs then? Not you, the amount you're paying then as an old person, even though the rates may be higher, is still nowhere near the actual cost. So then you are being subsidized by the young healthy people.
So while you could just wait and pay nothing into the system now while you're young, and gamble on not "needing" it - one could say that you're just being a deadbeat freeloader, planning to live of of the contributions of everybody else later.
You know how people here bitch and moan about folks going to the ER w/o insurance and never paying the bills, driving up the cost for everybody? Pretty much the same thing.

Think of it this way - if you want to "opt out" of the healthcare system... fine, you choice. But don't plan to come back later when you need it, b/c now you're just mooching off of my dime.

Just food for thought...

Except.

You're not considering a number of other aspects of health insurance that also govern what it costs. First, the fact that it's "insurance", not "health care". From a conservative financial standpoint, the ideal scenario is to purchase a high-deductible, low-premium plan that covers catastrophic incidents only. So you pay for your health care out of pocket (perhaps from a tax-advantaged account), and big ticket injuries and illnesses are covered by your insurance. Just like your car. This has a number of benefits beyond the obvious: For one, you're now a direct consumer of health care. It matters to you what things cost, since you're paying for them directly out of pocket. As we've seen over the last 20 years with elective procedures that aren't normally covered by insurance, pricing pressure forces competition and innovation, decreasing the cost to the patient and increasing the quality of service provided for any given price. This is the opposite of what Obamacare does. In fact, Obamacare adds additional services that aren't normally covered by insurance to the list of "required" services, further separating the patient from the actual costs of their healthcare and removing any pricing pressure that may have resulted, while simultaneously increasing the cost of premiums. It also largely outlawed most catastrophic policies. So much for "If you like your policy, you can keep it."

Secondly, competition. Several states have unusually high health insurance premiums. Some of this is for actuarial reasons (small populations with undesirable/costly demographics), some of it is due to state regulations, some of it is due to a lack of qualified insurance companies (decreasing competition). Here's a perfect place where the Federal government could intervene to decrease costs and increase competition -- allow patients to buy health insurance from any company in the US. It's not something that exactly appeals to the Federalist streak in me, but it is right up the alley of "What Commerce Clause?" Democrats. Did Obamacare allow people to buy health insurance from out of state, possibly decreasing costs and increasing patient choice? Of course not.

You touch on actuarial accounting, but neglect a critical aspect of it -- that it's about balancing risk. Yes, the masses cover the cost of the few, but the risky also pay a higher share, reflecting their higher potential costs to the system. Obamacare does the opposite -- it removes the ability to increase premiums or deny coverage for "existing conditions", and severely caps premiums for older customers.

The benevolence argument is a fair one, but it is clearly not the rational choice, given the alternatives. It also ignores that elderly healthcare costs are largely covered by Medicare -- a program that pays out tremendously more money than it takes in, and rather than being financed by "young, healthy people", is basically financed by selling T-bonds and notes to the Chinese and Japanese. And Medicare costs are surging in no small part because they cover anything and everything -- the patients are divorced from the cost of services, so there's little personal financial stake in determining what an appropriate level of care should be. Obama himself has argued that his dying grandmother shouldn't have received a knee replacement shortly before she passed away of cancer. Does Obamacare address overspending on healthcare? Sort of. They put an unelected board of 15 bureaucrats in charge of deciding what is covered, and what insurance companies or the government is willing to pay for it. You say there's a revolutionary new treatment for your illness than has a 50/50 chance of success and a tremendous cost? Yeah, that might not be covered. Good news, though -- there's increasing support on the Hill for abolishing the Independent Payment Advisory Board. The bad news is that abolishing it will likely increase costs -- or at least not hold them down. Moreover, estimates are that Medicare/Medicaid pay out $60 to $100 Billion a year in improper or fraudulent claims. Don't expect those numbers to go down with more customers on the rolls.

Meanwhile, the .gov has spent $650 million dollars on a website that doesn't work and isn't likely to work any time soon. They're estimating it's going to take another half billion dollars to fix it. The super-secret NSA let a temp walk out with thousands of top secret (and incriminating) documents. The IRS stands accused of using its power to intimidate political opponents and of leaking individual's financial data to the public. The Obama Administration missed fully half of the legally-mandated deadlines for the Obamacare rollout, in no small part because they were trying to delay bad news about the program until after the elections. And they're borrowing roughly 45 cents for every dollar they spend. But don't worry -- they've totally got this healthcare thing figured out.

One of the biggest O'care "success stories" makes a lie of your entire argument. They took a law student that was paying for a catastrophic policy out-of-pocket, signed him up on the O'care website, where he found out that he was eligible for a free Medicaid policy with full coverage. Took a young, healthy, insurance customer and turned him into a welfare case.
 
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All this POS law does is make it legal for tax payers to support illegal immigrants and others who have already been weighing down our economy for years.

Those who actually "need" healthcare were getting it before this shit came along.
 
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