The Scope of our Involvement

[DRaider90]

This started out as a one shot deal. I organized the March work day as a way for us to get involved that one time, and then maybe if people were interested we would expand. We as the group that attended agreed on bi-monthly work days.

Fast forward to the next work day in May. During the work day I hear a conversation with the Forest Service about a lot of huge plans to increase our involvement. And by the end of the work day we have increased our attendance to monthly work days.

From what happened that work day I was under the impression there were big plans for our involvement. But with another work day gone and having learned a bit more I think its time to take a step back and see where we as a group want to take this effort.

To make this as simple as possible I am going to break this down into 3 levels of involvement. Normal, Advanced, and Intense.

NORMAL: This involves covering the normal work day tasks, as listed:

-Cleaning drainage ditches/etc
-Repairing Log Bridges
-Cutting Down Trees
-Putting up Guard Rail
-Marking Trails with Orange Blaze Diamonds
-Cleaning Up Trails
-Conducting Trail Inventory

Equipment/Investment wise it requires a couple equipment rentals a year, and purchase of light-medium duty equipment such as Augers etc. This is the normal level of involvement taken by most of the clubs etc.

ADVANCED: This involves everything in Normal plus:

- Heavier Trail Repairs including filling in erosion/ditches, illegal mud pits, rock outcroppings, etc. This will involve more than one weekend a month during Feb/March in the off season.

- Work outside the normal scope of the trails. This includes road work/clean up, parking lot work/clean up, installing kiosks and other Forest Service information etc.

Equipment/Investment wise it requires more equipment rentals and donations etc. Extra safety equipment will be needed for the road work etc. It involves the possibilities of fundraisers and other avenues that will involve a Not For Profit Organization or our creation of a NFPO. A lot more time/money is needed for this level.

INTENSE:This includes advanced plus:

- Involvement in heavy trail repairs, trail re-routes and possibly trail construction.

- Heavy road work, even in the scope of re-grading roads or helping in paving.

- Expanded involvement in the outside trail work, including helping with any construction projects the Forest Service needs.

Equipment/Investment wise a lot is needed. Creation of our own NFPO or close involvement with an established one is a must. Equipment rentals will be frequent, more than once a month. Equipment purchase is strongly considered. Multiple fund raisers and other money raising efforts will be needed.

Vote for which level you would like to see our efforts go in.
(This is a public vote, so we can see where everyone stands.)

 

[shawn]

This reads like you're missing the point.

 

[Ron]

What level does thee FS want?
What level will they accept?

Seems to me that we first need to know what our role is with the FS, then we can figure out how to fill that void.

What concerns me is there seems to be 1 person full of piss and vinegar and many more willing to chip in. Now the enthusiasm is GREAT, and will be a huge asset, but it will take many people with a sustainable level of interest for this to work.

One course of thought is you become the operations arm for the FS and do everything, another is you do the mundane so they can handle the extraordinary...to me its all about what they want.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

I think public polls (where your vote can be seen) detracts from the goal of gaging public opinion on an issue. A private pole allows people to vote their concision with out worry of having to possibly substantiate it later on.

As an aside, I typically abstain from public polls or vote late as to not sway it one way or another especially if my vote is different from the majority. Like many others here, I'm known to weigh all the options on an issue and as such I will get several PMs asking what I might now that influenced my vote.

 

[DRaider90]

What level does thee FS want?
What level will they accept?
Seems to me that we first need to know what our role is with the FS, then we can figure out how to fill that void.
What concerns me is there seems to be 1 person full of piss and vinegar and many more willing to chip in. Now the enthusiasm is GREAT, and will be a huge asset, but it will take many people with a sustainable level of interest for this to work.
One course of thought is you become the operations arm for the FS and do everything, another is you do the mundane so they can handle the extraordinary...to me its all about what they want.

I have talked with Terry Savery about some projects on the "Advanced to Intense" side and the feeling I am getting is the more help we can provide the better. Because right now they have to contract out the majority of their work due to lack of resources. So any way we can help and save them money is in their eyes beneficial to them in saving them money.

I think public polls (where your vote can be seen) detracts from the goal of gaging public opinion on an issue. A private pole allows people to vote their concision with out worry of having to possibly substantiate it later on.

As an aside, I typically abstain from public polls or vote late as to not sway it one way or another especially if my vote is different from the majority. Like many others here, I'm known to weigh all the options on an issue and as such I will get several PMs asking what I might now that influenced my vote.

I was hoping that that people would still just express their opinion, and vote accordingly. Because you do have a point, and it was a worry I had.

This isn't a huge life and death deal. People please vote how you feel and there won't be any repercussions. I could understand if there was a "no involvement" option, some would be worried about voting for that. Because we all need to be on the same page about what we want our level of involvement to be, and where we want to go with this. Because this is a group volunteer effort, and everyone's opinion counts. Without the people here that volunteer there would be no work day effort.

 

[burrellsjeep]

I have to agree with Ron.

I feel the involvement should be at the level the Forest Service needs it to be. I am no expert, I haven't been able to make a clean up at Uwharrie, So please don't take this wrong. I am just giving you a point of view.

In my opinion, as Ron stated. You should consider the tasks in which your giving to complete and gage the involvement from that. Honestly do we need to vote? I feel like we should help as we can. I don't think you need to have the opinions.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

i voted for advanced, I don't agree with your break down. Expanded involvement (as you have listed under the intense group) isn't a function of our skill/equipment level, but of our willingness to help others. Which I think we have.


Road grating? Heavy construction ? Yes probably above the level we're shooting for...

I think the role you need to be taking in your communications with the FS is to to properly gage where we are at this point in time and act appropriately on our behalf.

I think your spending to much time and effort on road cones and signs rather than the bigger picture stuff that needs to worked out at this point in time.

You've basically decided we need a bob cat, when several have pointed out that finsncially this isn't the best option for the type/duration of work projects we would do.

Do we have any projects lined up yet?

 

[Sal-XK]

I haven't made a work day either but I do plan on it but I did donate a few bucks to the cause so I would like to chime in here, and I just made my first trip there last week and took a look around.
first of all Eli, your doing a awesome job and I love your enthusiasm. Its better to have someone you have to pull back and slow down then always having to motivate and push. From what I can see you are very motivated and passionate about helping out UNF and that is great. It's people like you that that change the world and make things better and if we had a few more that motivated I would be secure in thinking some day I can take my grand kids down a trail at UNF.

From what I can tell any work we do is needed and appreciated by the FS. But, it seems the heavier the work we do the more money we save the FS. I saw a lot of trash on the trails and it made me sick I hate that. I yelled at my wife for throwing biodegradable naps on the floor and picked them up. I think it comes down to money. The more money we save the FS the better off we are in the long wrong. With this type of efforts were sending a message to the politicians don't mess with our trails. So I think we should do the heaviest work possible that saves the FS the most money possible. Sorry for the long winded response.

 

[DRaider90]

I am trying to think of a way, to put this as simply as possible.

Our involvement in the Forest Service work days is only limited by what we want to put into them. I think people are viewing this from the wrong angle. I don't go to Terry and say "What do you want us to do?". I come here find out what we can offer, and then I go to her and say "We have this, and we would like to do this, how can we use it for the work day?".

Take this past work day. Most people on here wanted another medium load work day. Medium load meaning putting up guard rail, cleaning out drainage ditches etc, anything beyond the scope of just picking up trash and marking trails. So I relayed this information to her before the work day, and she set us up with installing guard railing. To be honest we could have been that one work group that just cleaned up trash the last work day. Not taking away from cleaning up trash, but some people want to be a little more involved on some of the work days.

Now let me address the cones/signs deal. Last work day we watched numerous vehicles drive by and and not even look at what we were doing, let alone say anything. This was seen as a problem. We talked about it during the work day, and we came back and worked on a solution. I know most people don't see cones and signs to raise awareness and safety for our group isn't the biggest fish to fry right now. But this is a problem that we had in the May work day, and every work day essentially. We stand in the Hunt Camp and watch people drive by. So the cones/signs are a small part of the larger issue of getting the general public/wheelers involved in the work days, and aware of what is going on. The cones/signs thread started another thread about getting a canopy set up at the Outpost/Double Parkinglot to hand out information etc. Its not just about cones/signs.

The Bobcat deal. I will admit I am fighting a loosing battle with this. Most don't consider we could work out free/discounted rentals for the short term. And then in the long term a couple years down the road, our rental relationship with a company could turn into a discounted purchase if we so wanted. Because the use of a Bobcat goes back up to a point above. We are only limited on what we can do during the work days by what we bring to the table. And if I could tell Terry we had/could get a bobcat/equipment any work day we needed, it would have a big impact on what we could do. Right now we have to either raise money for individual FULL PRICE rentals, or rely on people to donate equipment.

What Projects do we have lined up? Well that is a broad question so here we go.

July Work Day:We will be finishing putting up the guard railing that we didn't get to in June. We need a Auger to get this done, we cannot rely on the forest service augers. So what can we do about that? Well in the Donations Records thread tknopp posted:

We raised $524 at the summer convention raffle to go back into uwharrie.

So for the last week I have been working with him to see how they want to spend the money they raised. With a big thanks to them we have worked out a purchase of a 2-Man Earthquake Auger and an 8" bit. I made phone calls and found out who had what in stock, and we will be getting up this coming week to get the purchase taken care of.

Another project is the $300 Cabin Rental for the July work day. This was setup as a way for people to have an nice option for lodging in the heat. Because I know from people talking in the past they don't like camping over in the heat/humidity. So I figured this would eliminate another reason for people not to go. Getting the $300 together (which I am still short around $100) and making the reservation takes time.

Rockvember Work Day:
We face a number of hurdles to overcome for this work day. I have all ready started talking to Terry about what projects we can arrange for this work day seeing the possible limitations.

Trail Work Awareness Day(s): Have talked with Chris at the outpost about setting this up. General idea (from the "Public Awareness thread") is to set up a couple canopys, set the cones/signs up to get some attention, line up an RTI ramp, and a couple other things (food etc). Get people signed/up involved in the work days, and spread the word about keeping our trails open. And this filters back to the purchase of the cones/signs and other stuff I am still working on.

Outside Trail Involvement: Been getting in touch with Terry on what projects we can get involved with outside the scope of the work days. The 2 most promising right now are Road Clean up/Work, and parking lot cleaning/maintenance. When Janet gets back from Maine we will also be discussing how we can help at Arrowhead and some of the other campgrounds.

Off-Season Trail Repairs: This has been in the works since March, because it is a fairly large project. Every year the Forest Service contracts out the large portion of its trail repairs for the off-season. This year some will remember the contractor riding around on a Bobcat. Well I have talked with Terry about letting our group handle this instead. And save the Forest Service the money of contracting someone. This would involve multiple weekends of work, including the use of a Bobcat for multiple weekends. An FEL wouldn't be a viable option here, as I have discussed with her. Just maybe, having a rental setup with a local company would help for this situation. Not to mention free/discounted rentals, that is just me though.

New Years Eve Trail Ride:I am not even supposed to really be posting about this because nothing has been set in stone yet. But I have been talking with Terry and Chris, plus a couple others about opening the trails for New Years eve. This is a huge undertaking if it gets through the redtape/approval process. The idea is to charge $5 a trail pass, plus a $25 donation to enter the trails. For a total of $30 per vehicle, as a way to raise a nice amount of money for the Forest Service. Again this hasn't been approved yet, but its something we are trying to make happen. I don't think anyone has been allowed to ride the trails on New Years Eve for many years.

And this is considering for just about every 5 phone calls I make, and 5 e-mails I send I usually get one phone or one e-mail back from the Forest Service. This doesn't include the phone calls/e-mails/PMs to other people I have am working with on everything else.

 

[Ron]

I don't go to Terry and say "What do you want us to do?". I come here find out what we can offer, and then I go to her and say "We have this, and we would like to do this, how can we use it for the work day?".

I stopped reading right here, I think this is the entire problem.

Let me try to expand, the other week I was working on one of my little projects where we are converting all our old tape home movies to digital files for long term storage and portability. Well I have a little table in my home office with 70 of these tapes (they are kids birthdays, Christmas etc before anyone gets any ideas, I KNOW YOU GUYS) and while the first was encoding I have 2 with broken ribbons so I had those set out and taken apart and was working on one...well I walk back into my office to get a drink and check on the encoding process and there is my proud 9 year old with 52 tapes disassembled using my cordless driver, "Look Dad I helped"...I bit my lip, laughed and explained that helping is doing what is needed not what is wanted or looks exciting and explained that I really didnt need those tapes taken apart, only the two I had...he was excited because he got to use the gun and put 52 tapes back together...but the lesson is the same.

Look I own a D4 dozer (yes I own a CAT ass holes get over it) I think it could help out a ton...Ill just bring it to the next work day....

Now what in the hell are you going to do with it?

I can think of 4 or 5 members who have told me personally I have a tractor/auger and I could help but I am not real sure on where how much it is needed.

Point 2 dont try to donate the trail repair, try to co-op it. If they paid 20k last year maybe they pay 10k this year to you and you "donate 10k" and then you have working capital..maybe then you can buy your golden bobcat and have it for future work days.

 

[DRaider90]

Look I own a D4 dozer (yes I own a CAT ass holes get over it) I think it could help out a ton...Ill just bring it to the next work day....
Now what in the hell are you going to do with it?

It would be used on Daniel to re-fill in the 2nd ledge and a couple other things on Daniel to make sure the Forest Service bulldozer can access the trail during the off-season.

But yeah I get that isn't the point.

My mistake on not elaborating enough on my previous statement about talking with Terry. I knew something like this would come up.

When I came to Terry in March I asked her what do you need us to do. She laid out a lot of things, and since then as things change/develop she relays that information. The May work day was a perfect example, she rode with me and we did trail inventory on Daniel. We are now at the point where I come to her with what we can offer, and she decides where to apply it on that list. I have tried to convey the list of stuff that needs to be done over and over and over again and people only see a small part of the list and ignore the other parts.

Lets go there I guess.

-Falls Dam needs guard railing put up in 6+ Spots
-Dutch John needs guard railing put up in at least 3 spots.
-Rocky Mnt Loop still needs guard railing in a couple spots.
-Saw Mill needs guard railing to block the illegal bypass of what used to be the rut.
-Daniel needs the 2nd ledge that was filled in maintained so the Forest Service bulldozer can traverse the trail.
-The ruts that pop up all over Rocky Mnt Loop need to be maintained/filled in
-The mud pit on Daniel needs to be drained/filled in
-Access to old roads on multiple trails need to be blocked off (guard rail etc)
-Illegal bypasses and ATV trails all over the trail system need to be blocked off.
-Drainage ditches need to be cleaned out/dirt berms maintained
-The gravel areas of the parking lot need to be maintained
-Pot holes on the roads need to be filled in until pavement funds are approved.
-The rut on the Hill Climb on Dutch John needs to be maintained/filled in.
-The rut on Saw Mill needs to be filled in again/maintained.
-The descent on the upper side of Rocky Mnt Loop needs to be filled in again/maintained.
-Dead trees on multiple trails need to be cut down
-Illegal ATV bypasses opening up an old road/trail on Dutch John near the hill climb need to be blocked off
-Illegal ATV bypasses on Daniel accessing another old road/part of the Gold Mine trail need to be blocked off (if they haven't allready)
-The hill climb exit on Wolfs Den needs to be maintained.
-The mud pits that have been getting out of control need to be addressed
-Graffiti needs to be taken care of on the rock slab next to Poser Rock on slab pile
-Carsonites are needed at some trail intersections to clarify trail markings.
-Most trails need more orange blaze diamonds with their respective trail number put up
-Culverts need to be arranged/installed in some areas.
-A Bridge will need to be put in on the Dickey Bell stream crossing.
-Trash needs to be picked up on all trails and roads
-Certain roadside ditches need to be addressed
-The Kodak Rock Garden's constant expansion needs to be addressed along with guard railing/fence
-The bypass for the Double Ledge on Rocky Mnt Loop needs to be maintained.
-Illegal obstacles like the one rutted hill on Falls Dam need to be blocked off
-Rock outcroppings that appear from erosion/tire spin that increase the difficulty of the "easy" trails needs to be addressed.
-Log bridges on the other trails (Dutch John has been addressed) need to be maintained/fixed.

And that is just what I can remember off the top of my head. And every time we go do trail inventory with Terry on a work day that list expands. That list doesn't include work that may need to be done at the Campgrounds or other areas that we haven't been able to cover yet. Just about as much is taken off that list is added any given work day. So again we are back at the above issue.

Right now Falls Dam is being neglected as far as volunteer work goes. So she has had us focused on it. Currently that means putting up guard rail to block the ATV/Dirtbike bypasses. And every month new ones pop up. We are focusing on one thing at a time, and I come to her with how we can help with what ever she is focusing on.

So maybe I should have said she has all ready told us what needs to be done. Its now up to her based on what we can provide as to what gets done. The Forest supplies/tools are limited, and the list of work to do is huge. So it really does matter what we are able to bring to the table. I don't want to work it the other way around. Because we have no guarantees on equipment. I don't want Terry coming to us saying they need heavy equipment for a work day and we can't supply one. I don't think we have built up our reputation with the Forest Service to that point yet. We have only attended 3 work days. We could have used some kind of tow behind Auger etc the last work day but we weren't able to arrange that. So until we have a reliable source for equipment that isn't up in the air work day to work day I don't want Terry asking us for stuff we can't deliver on. It looks bad on our part, and it paints us as un-reliable. Its a much safer route to come to her with what we can offer, and have her decide what its used on.

 

[DRaider90]

Point 2 dont try to donate the trail repair, try to co-op it. If they paid 20k last year maybe they pay 10k this year to you and you "donate 10k" and then you have working capital..maybe then you can buy your golden bobcat and have it for future work days.

I agree with this, I had thought about it when I first started talking to Terry about things in March. But not quite sure how to go about it, in the most correct/professional manner if that makes sense.

As far as the Golden Bobcat goes I am about to scrap the plans for anything to do with a bobcat. If the group says we don't need one, then we don't need one. I regret even mentioning the idea of purchasing a bobcat.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

So why are you just now posting this list? Is this a prioritized list? Do the clubs who are assigned to each trail know about these specific tasks (in detail)?

For each of the tasks listed, get more details, GPS cords, snap a pic, have Terry draw on it exactly what needs to be done in detail. It sounds like there is no shortage of work we just need the details.

You wanted to do the coordination, as I said I think you'd be surprised of what this group is capable of, if challenged. Trash duty and hanging markers isn't really putting a challenge down. I'm happy to see you starting to step up to the this.. Its not a small task by any means...


Supplies - Had I known a tow behind auger was 'needed' for the last work day I would have rented one and seen that it got there.

Here this lists for $1899 new. (maybe we can do better on price somewhere)
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200025074_200025074

I will put in $500 towards the purchase. (btw: this is coming out of my jeep fund)

Who else will step up?

Get ready to cross this excuse off your list....


Can someone find out if we can actually use the NFS storage area located down there. We will need to see about getting a shipping container to keep shit secured..


Lastly - Can we do something about rearranging the work day schedules some. Personally I'd like to be out there on the trails working at 8am. I think many other would love to start at 11 or 12, ok fine. Create a way for those arriving later to know where to head out to the work areas and relieve those who may have to leave early. Also, maybe we can rope all these passer bys in to helping out for an hour or 2.

 

[Ron]

I agree that is an impressive list Eli!
maybe more than we can even conquer single handedly... or with today's group.
How about adopting a trail or a couple trails until membership swells.

I have a feeling that if you took, say 10 of those items laser focus and drilled em quickly the group would build momentum and more and more people would come out.

 

[DRaider90]

I didn't post this list earlier because that is all it is, is a list. Behind 90 percent of the list there are no details worked out yet. I saw no point in posting a massive list of stuff to do, that the majority of hasn't been laid out yet. For those not familiar with the process:

1.)Problems are brought to Terry's attention.
2.)She goes out with one of the groups during a work day to do trail inventory. During this time she marks out on her map/notes what needs to be done.
3.)Before the next work day she goes out and flags all the areas that need work.
4.)The next work day the groups go out and accomplish the work.

If you want a time line on this, I have a perfect example. Keep in mind there are other phone calls e-mails sent in-between these dates. I just picked out the important ones:

April 12th - I send an e-mail to Deborah about some issues on Daniel.
April 15th - I get a reply telling me that Terry has been notified and to continue to work with her on this issue.
May 5th - I hear back from Terry about doing trail inventory during the May work day.
May 22nd - Terry rides with me on Daniel and we do trail inventory.
June 10th - First work day e-mail, mentions the Daniel work needed.
June 17th - 2nd work day e-mail, this time with a lot more specifics. We can assume between the the 10th and 17th she went out and marked all the spots. Because in the 17th e-mail she now mentions that everything has been marked off.
June 19th - During the work day the issues on Daniel are taken care of.

Now that took a little over 2 months time to accomplish. If we had attended the April work day, that time might have been cut down to a little more than a month. But that is speculating.

Right now it seems on that list blocking illegal bypasses takes up the heavier duty work, and cleaning up the trails, plus marking the trails as light work in between seems to be the main focus/priority. All the trail repair work (filling in ruts, illegal mud pits etc) will probably be pushed off till later in the year or the off-season next year, and some will probably be covered during the heavy duty maintenance in July (For Rocky Mnt. Loop and Falls Dam at least). This is mainly because there isn't any equipment available to do the trail repair work right now, AND it takes a lot of time to put in guard railing with the conventional means.

This is why while we may not need heavy equipment to do the trail work currently, it would speed the process up and allow us to get into trail repairs before the off-season rolls around. But again its all about priorities. And also remember most of the medium duty work requires some level of Forest Service Supervision. Terry trusted us on the last work day to work on our own with the guard railing, which speaks volumes really.

So right now preventing future damage to the forest from illegal bypasses and spider trails etc is the main focus. This involves putting up guard railing. Once we cross that hurdle we can get onto other projects and trail repairs etc. But anything we do has to be covered in trail inventory, then laid out by Terry, and only then can we do the work.

 

[DRaider90]

Part 2.

As far as the walk behind auger goes let me put it this way. We don't need one because we will have a 2-man Auger by next week. BUT a walk behind/tow behind auger would make the work days more efficient. This is probably the type of wording I should have used when approaching the bobcat situation.

As far as storage goes currently to my knowledge we have the use of the shed located at Janet's (at Arrowhead). But that isn't storage for heavy equipment etc etc. It can store our cones, signs, and probably the 2-man auger, but that is about it.

Work day schedules are out of my hands as far a decision making goes. That is solely the discretion of the Forest Service. I can talk to Terry about letting part our group go early, because I did see a group do that last work day. If we get those people signed in early and accounted for, they should let us get a head start. But don't quote me on that, I have to check with Terry first.

 

[Granny]

WOW! Eli, don't stop, but please slow down some! As a burnt-out veteran of workdays past I have seen a lot of people come and go, and a lot of ideas come and go. Your ambition and dedication to all this has undoubtedly rekindled my interest, and I am once again actually looking forward to participating in the workday program. I didn't think I would ever get that back. For that, I sincerely thank you for ALL your effort and hard work, however, on the other side of the coin I fear that too much, too soon, may end up spoiling the whole effort. I would suggest a few more workdays with what we already have lined up, and making do with the resources we have (extra donations welcomed). That should be more than enough to demonstrate to the FS that the effort is real. Beyond that, I might suggest going by the one-step-at-a-time plan for a while. It simply can not all be done in one shot. Some may disagree with me, but for the time being I will vote for the NORMAL with maybe a little bit of the ADVANCED mixed in until we see what comes of it. ...just my 2 cents worth.

 

[J.C.]

^

Thanks Don, my feelings exactly!