Thoughts on a winch mount built primarily for side pulls?

[87GMCJimmy]

Due to my truck's (comparatively) light rearend and its loooong wheelbase, I have several times found myself in situations where a side pull was necessary. I would like to mount a winch to the rear of my truck but would like to figure out a way to make the winch work for side pulls. (I do not recall ever being in a straight backward winching self recovery situation with the truck though, I have had times when a rear facing winch would be handy for recovering others!

Obviously, a 90 degree side pull is not ideal for a straight mounted winch.

3 winches would solve this (straight, right and left) but would be completely impractical.

Having somebody behind me that has a winch would also solve the problem (as it has in the past) but, constantly depending on others is not a good solution.

I have found myself needing to pull froward with front mount winch whilst simultaneously having another rig's winch pull the rear of my truck sideways so, a straight out the back line with pulley blocks setup to redirect to a side pull would be putting the work of my winches partially at odds with each other.

My initial thought was to build a slip-plate style winch mount. But, given the dirt/dust/mud/water the mount will near constantly be exposed to,I wonder if this is the best approach? My second thought is whether this type of setup would put the cable routing potentially in conflict with my rear leaf springs. Given these questions, this doesn't seem practical.

So, what about positioning the winch deeply recessed under the rear of the truck, and running a removable center roller to redirect the line 90 degrees out to mini fairleads at the two sides of the frame in areas where the cable couldn't possibly hit the leafsprings? That way the 90 degree pull would be a straight pull as far as the winch itself is concerned. Then, if a straight pull is needed, the center roller could be removed and the cable routed out a full size roller fairlead at the face of the bumper.

^ all this could be easily viewed/performed without crawling under the truck by cutting an access panel in the bed of the truck. (if the bed was full of course this could be done by crawling under but, that would be best avoided)

Bear in mind, the 90 degree side pull capability would not be used for the recovery of other vehicles and would never see full vehicle weight loading as it would only be used under limited traction conditions. (such as when the rear of the truck slides down a slippery clay side hill into a tree or when I had to purposely break traction so the truck could be pulled sideways in order to make a turn that was too tight for my truck's turning radius) Also, I don't anticipate the 90 degree pulls to be more than about 20' at maximum.

Anybody had to come up with something along these lines? Thoughts?

 

[shawn]

 

[Fabrik8]

a straight out the back line with pulley blocks setup to redirect to a side pull would be putting the work of my winches partially at odds with each other.

I'm confused by this statement.

 

[a_kelley]

Why not just mount it on a receiver style cradle and make a pivot hitch where the winch will pivot side to side (180*). Plus then you can easily transfer the winch to the front with an added receiver.

 

[Stuntman Autoworks]

Driving Lessons maybe? If your having to pull sideways on the rear of your truck enough that your contemplating doing all of what you described, then maybe your doing something wrong.


But seriously any suspension mods or something else you can do to make the truck handle the trail better?

 

[Mac5005]

Mount winch, install roller fair lead and done.

That's the job of the fairlead.

 

[rockcity]

Use an oversized winch and cable and just muscle through it. I'd think the few times you'd use it would not be much of an issue

 

[superman27344]

Morgan, since your bed is so dented up anyway, why not go with a flat bed and mount the winch on the flat bed on some kind of rotating mount so that you position it in whatever direction you need at any given time.

 

[moldman05]

I have to agree. I put a 12000 lb Harbor Freight in rear with a roller fair lead and it works great at any angle. I did very hard pulls at nearly 90 degrees with out harm to cable. I'm long and heavy so I like be able to drag my butt around.

 

[shawn]

Back in the day, Moorefield ran a mid-mounted 8274 winch. The cable ran forward along the frame (with the help of a few pulleys) out to the front fairlead. From there it ran through a permanently-mounted snatch block, back through the fairlead, along the opposite frame rail, and came out of a fairlead on the rear of the vehicle. It was capable of double-line pulls in the forward direction, single line pulls to the rear, or even stringing the winch rope out and driving along it like a ferry rope, all without changing the rigging.

I think you could come up with something similar that would address all your design problems with a single winch and some pulleys. Mount the winch sideways in the area where the spare tire is supposed to go, run it out to the PS, through a pulley, straight across to the DS, through a pulley, back to the center of the vehicle, through a pulley, then out to a fairlead at the rear of the vehicle.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

I'm confused by this statement.

I say the winches would be at odds with each other since one (front) would be pulling forward whilst the rear winch (coming straight out the rear of the vehicle) if rigged to be pulling close to a straight pull and using pulley blocks to put the hook pulling 90 degrees off the side of the truck, some of the pulling force of the rear winch would be pulling the truck rearward in addition to pulling to the side. (exact ratio woud have to be calculated by the angles of the line)

Why not just mount it on a receiver style cradle and make a pivot hitch where the winch will pivot side to side (180*). Plus then you can easily transfer the winch to the front with an added receiver.

I thought about this BUT, a receiver mount capable of a 90 degree side pull is going to be pretty bulky. Also, not really wanting to have to heft around a 12K receiver winch in slick trails! (winch alone is around 90lbs (Warn VR12000)) Also, I already have a stock front winch (a reverse rotation 15K Warn that is relabeled as a 12K, it is stock on Power Wagons)

Driving Lessons maybe? If your having to pull sideways on the rear of your truck enough that your contemplating doing all of what you described, then maybe your doing something wrong.


But seriously any suspension mods or something else you can do to make the truck handle the trail better?

LOL! Well, I have learned a few things in the time owning the truck that would keep me out of some of the situations (some things I indeed did do wrong) but, it seems to me that sometimes this type of recovery situation is near inevitable with this truck.

I can think of a few mods that would help but, they are well beyond my expenditure potential! (the truck sits on about a 149" wheelbase and is about 20' long, currently has about 1.5" lift (3" compared to regular Ram 2500) and 37" tires)

Morgan, since your bed is so dented up anyway, why not go with a flat bed and mount the winch on the flat bed on some kind of rotating mount so that you position it in whatever direction you need at any given time.

Would be a good idea! I wish I could go the full flatbed trail rig build route but, I need to retain the pickup bed as I use it for hauling stuff more often then I use it on tough trails.

Mac5005, rockcity, moldman05- pulling 90 degrees to the side, I would have an offset wad of cable in a hurry! Years ago I accidentally bound up a winch in this manner, when the diameter of the cable on the drum lodged against the winch's bars.

^ now, this could be avoided by stopping and re-rigging but, I don't really have a practical way to secure the truck mid pull.

Shawn- Moorefield's does sound like a cool setup! I've seen a couple older rigs setup similarly. (one that comes to mind is actually a Power Wagon but, a 50s one!)

That's actually a pretty nifty idea you've got there, would likely be more user friendly (and easier to build) than my original idea, Thanks for the input!

 

[Fabrik8]

I say the winches would be at odds with each other since one (front) would be pulling forward whilst the rear winch (coming straight out the rear of the vehicle) if rigged to be pulling close to a straight pull and using pulley blocks to put the hook pulling 90 degrees off the side of the truck, some of the pulling force of the rear winch would be pulling the truck rearward in addition to pulling to the side. (exact ratio would have to be calculated by the angles of the line)

The only application of pulling force between the truck and the outside world is the winch line, and if the winch line is at 90 degrees to the truck, then the pulling force is 90 degrees to the truck. There is no rearward pulling force from the cable. A winch line is limp, and cannot exert any sideways force (rearward in this case) along the direction of the line obviously. You can only move the truck rearward if the winch line comes off of the truck at a rearward angle, because then there is a force component at whatever rearward angle between the truck and whatever the hook end of the line is attached to. If you have a slight forward angle on the winch line, you'll have some force component pulling the truck sightly forward.

There is a rearward force that is the resultant force of the cable tension between the pulley and winch (at the angle, etc), which only acts within the attachment points on the truck and does not add any external pulling force. That's the force you're thinking of, but it does not act externally to the truck and therefore doesn't move the truck.

Think of it this way: If you turned your front winch sideways and moved it over to the right side of the bumper (or left side, whatever), then put a pulley in the center of the bumper so the winch line came straight off the front of the truck (same direction as a normal front winch), would the truck go sideways if you did a straight pull? No, the truck would go straight, even though the winch line was going sideways between the winch and the pulley.

The winch line tension force acts on the pulley, and the pulley acts on the truck. That's all there is for external forces from the winch line.

 

[Fabrik8]

So you really just need a rearward facing winch that's set forward of the rear bumper (toward the front of the truck), so you can put a pulley or two on each side to turn a total of 90 degrees in a gentle fashion.

Or have a winch on a mount that can swivel and lock in a few positions, so the winch can be turned left or right at will.

Really there are a couple of ways to solve this, and packaging the winch in a practical location is the biggest challenge I think. Whatever it is, make it strong so you can drag the truck sideways against the truck weight and tire friction force.

 

[Mac5005]

How far would you possibly need to winch 90 degrees to the truck?

Just for example when moldman05 used his at 90 degrees it was to pull the back end of the truck, off camber, up hill, around a corner, to make a turn, while the rear end was off the trail.

Even if we winched, 12' of cable, the back end of the truck would then be pointed directly at the cable.

I cannot come up with a scenario where you to pull a long distance at 90 degrees?

But then again, the fairlead doesn't care if it's being pulled at 90 degrees or 10 degrees, as soon as the cable hits that side roller, it's going to spool all the cable on that one side.

This is a problem when winching forward with a 5-10 degree cable angle.

Disclaimer, my degree numbers are complete guesses. I don't measure that crap when I'm in the wood wheeling.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

The only application of pulling force between the truck and the outside world is the winch line, and if the winch line is at 90 degrees to the truck, then the pulling force is 90 degrees to the truck. There is no rearward pulling force from the cable. A winch line is limp, and cannot exert any sideways force (rearward in this case) along the direction of the line obviously. You can only move the truck rearward if the winch line comes off of the truck at a rearward angle, because then there is a force component at whatever rearward angle between the truck and whatever the hook end of the line is attached to. If you have a slight forward angle on the winch line, you'll have some force component pulling the truck sightly forward.

There is a rearward force that is the resultant force of the cable tension between the pulley and winch (at the angle, etc), which only acts within the attachment points on the truck and does not add any external pulling force. That's the force you're thinking of, but it does not act externally to the truck and therefore doesn't move the truck.

Think of it this way: If you turned your front winch sideways and moved it over to the right side of the bumper (or left side, whatever), then put a pulley in the center of the bumper so the winch line came straight off the front of the truck (same direction as a normal front winch), would the truck go sideways if you did a straight pull? No, the truck would go straight, even though the winch line was going sideways between the winch and the pulley.

The winch line tension force acts on the pulley, and the pulley acts on the truck. That's all there is for external forces from the winch line.

I think you are speaking of the pulley block being INSIDE the truck with this???

That is not the concern I have, my concern (prompting thinking of a rather complicated winch mount) was with the pulley block OUTSIDE the truck (attached to an anchor, say a tree saver strap around a tree), where the truck did NOT have a pulley block in the winch mount design but rather had a conventionally mounted rearward facing winch doing a straight line pull to the rear, going into an external pulley block, making a 45 degree angle, going to another external pulley block (attached to another external anchor such as a tree), making another 45 degree angle, and then terminating into the side of the truck with the hook attached to an anchor point on the truck. I would think (if the winch lines goes straight out the back and then 90 degrees into the side of the truck) the truck would be pulled in equal measures backward and to the side??? That the pulling forces could be effected by the angle of the winchline's initial exit from the truck and its angle of return back to an anchor point on the truck? (I am sure there's a way to calculate the amount of force in a given direction but, I do not know how to) The simple fact that I believe there would be a pulling force to the rear is what is prompting the brainstorming of an idea of how to change where (and in which direction) the line exits the truck.

So you really just need a rearward facing winch that's set forward of the rear bumper (toward the front of the truck), so you can put a pulley or two on each side to turn a total of 90 degrees in a gentle fashion.

Or have a winch on a mount that can swivel and lock in a few positions, so the winch can be turned left or right at will.

Really there are a couple of ways to solve this, and packaging the winch in a practical location is the biggest challenge I think. Whatever it is, make it strong so you can drag the truck sideways against the truck weight and tire friction force.

BINGO! That's the exact page I am on! I was just hoping someone had done something in the way of a mount like this and could offer their insight.

 

[Mac5005]

Even if you wanted to spin the rear tires and winch yourself sideways, it wouldn't take much cable to change the vehicle angle. This is where pulling at 90 degrees would be advantageous.

I still think you are over complicating the crap out of this.

Mount winch and fairlead and go wheel.

If the cable spools all on one side of drum whether front or rear, stop and reset the cable and then continue before the cable binds.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

How far would you possibly need to winch 90 degrees to the truck?

Just for example when moldman05 used his at 90 degrees it was to pull the back end of the truck, off camber, up hill, around a corner, to make a turn, while the rear end was off the trail.

Even if we winched, 12' of cable, the back end of the truck would then be pointed directly at the cable.

I cannot come up with a scenario where you to pull a long distance at 90 degrees?

But then again, the fairlead doesn't care if it's being pulled at 90 degrees or 10 degrees, as soon as the cable hits that side roller, it's going to spool all the cable on that one side.

This is a problem when winching forward with a 5-10 degree cable angle.

Disclaimer, my degree numbers are complete guesses. I don't measure that crap when I'm in the wood wheeling.

Moldman's predicament sounds VERY similar to what I am thinking of! I would hope it wouldn't ever be a long pull, I cannot say exactly how long the previous pulls have been but, guessing I would say 15' max. That's still enough to bind up the winch if all that line is winding on one side though. Let's say the max diameter allowed by the bars is 6", yielding a circumference of approx. 18.84" on the last layer before interference BUT, the first layer on a 2.5" drum is only approx 7.85". With 3/8" wire diameter, this yields less than 5 wraps on the drum before the winch would jam. If my math is correct,(even assuming 5 wraps) that gives a max of about 51" of side pull before it would jam assuming the cable went into a one row width stack. But, the cable would not go back on the drum in one row so, it's safe to say the 90 degree pull could be longer than 51" without jamming. How much longer a pull though? I would rather not be in a situation where I found my winch jamming whilst my truck still needed to be pulled further to the side.

 

[Fabrik8]

I think you are speaking of the pulley block being INSIDE the truck with this???

That is not the concern I have, my concern (prompting thinking of a rather complicated winch mount) was with the pulley block OUTSIDE the truck (attached to an anchor, say a tree saver strap around a tree), where the truck did NOT have a pulley block in the winch mount design but rather had a conventionally mounted rearward facing winch doing a straight line pull to the rear, going into an external pulley block, making a 45 degree angle, going to another external pulley block (attached to another external anchor such as a tree), making another 45 degree angle, and then terminating into the side of the truck with the hook attached to an anchor point on the truck. I would think (if the winch lines goes straight out the back and then 90 degrees into the side of the truck) the truck would be pulled in equal measures backward and to the side??? That the pulling forces could be effected by the angle of the winchline's initial exit from the truck and its angle of return back to an anchor point on the truck? (I am sure there's a way to calculate the amount of force in a given direction but, I do not know how to) The simple fact that I believe there would be a pulling force to the rear is what is prompting the brainstorming of an idea of how to change where (and in which direction) the line exits the truck.

Yes, if you come straight rearward out of the truck to an affixed pulley, go through some pulleys, and come back 90 degrees into the side of the truck, then yes, it's mostly the same as a 45 degree pull. There are easier ways to do that, like making the winch line exit the truck at a 45 degrees angle.

 

[frankenyoter]

Even if you wanted to spin the rear tires and winch yourself sideways, it wouldn't take much cable to change the vehicle angle. This is where pulling at 90 degrees would be advantageous.

I still think you are over complicating the crap out of this.

Mount winch and fairlead and go wheel.

If the cable spools all on one side of drum whether front or rear, stop and reset the cable and then continue before the cable binds.

Yep! Couldn't say it better. Move along people nothing to see here.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

Even if you wanted to spin the rear tires and winch yourself sideways, it wouldn't take much cable to change the vehicle angle. This is where pulling at 90 degrees would be advantageous.

I still think you are over complicating the crap out of this.

Mount winch and fairlead and go wheel.

If the cable spools all on one side of drum whether front or rear, stop and reset the cable and then continue before the cable binds.

I can guarantee I am over complicating the crap out of it! LOL! It's what I do!

The ability to go 90 degrees would be HUGELY advantageous!

In one of the situations, I could have stopped and re-rigged at any time. (purposely spinning the rear tires on a good tractive surface)

In the others, the truck likely might have slid back down if winch tension was released. (slick clay mud with considerable side slope)

Yes, I could likely secure and re-rig BUT, I'm not 100% sure of the viability of that option in all circumstances. About the only securing option I can think of that offers the amount of infinite adjustability necessary would be chain- hoofing around on a slick side slope with a long piece chain and securing the vehicle and re-rigging. Although, on second thought, I suppose I could daisy chain a length of synthetic line to the right overall length. Just seems more convenient to design a mount that avoids the need to stop and re-rig due to excessively side pulling since I am having to design a custom winch mount anyway.

 

[Fabrik8]

Moldman's predicament sounds VERY similar to what I am thinking of! I would hope it wouldn't ever be a long pull, I cannot say exactly how long the previous pulls have been but, guessing I would say 15' max. That's still enough to bind up the winch if all that line is winding on one side though. Let's say the max diameter allowed by the bars is 6", yielding a circumference of approx. 18.84" on the last layer before interference BUT, the first layer on a 2.5" drum is only approx 7.85". With 3/8" wire diameter, this yields less than 5 wraps on the drum before the winch would jam. If my math is correct,(even assuming 5 wraps) that gives a max of about 51" of side pull before it would jam assuming the cable went into a one row width stack. But, the cable would not go back on the drum in one row so, it's safe to say the 90 degree pull could be longer than 51" without jamming. How much longer a pull though? I would rather not be in a situation where I found my winch jamming whilst my truck still needed to be pulled further to the side.

If you move the fairlead away from the winch, that's basically what you're doing by adding pulleys attached to the truck. Moving the fairlead away from the winch would make the angle between the side of the fairlead and the spool a lot smaller for whatever given fairlead width.

I still think a swivel mount with lockdown holes and a hitch pin would be super cool.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

Yes, if you come straight rearward out of the truck to an affixed pulley, go through some pulleys, and come back 90 degrees into the side of the truck, then yes, it's mostly the same as a 45 degree pull. There are easier ways to do that, like making the winch line exit the truck at a 45 degrees angle.

BUT, even if I were to go as far as the line exiting the truck at say a 60 degree angle, there is still some rearward pull, in opposition to the frontward pull that I would be using my front winch for. (in all the situations where I had to have my truck side-pulled, my only option was to continue forward progress) I guess I just can't get past this- it seems less than desirable to me to have my winches working in opposition to each other even to a small degree.

 

[Fabrik8]

I guess I just can't get past this- it seems less than desirable to me to have my winches working in opposition to each other even to a small degree.

If that's your big hangup, your only option is 90 degrees or more than 90 degrees toward the front of the truck.

 

[87GMCJimmy]

r

If you move the fairlead away from the winch, that's basically what you're doing by adding pulleys attached to the truck. Moving the fairlead away from the winch would make the angle between the side of the fairlead and the spool a lot smaller for whatever given fairlead width.

I still think a swivel mount with lockdown holes and a hitch pin would be super cool.

That is a valid point, for a VERY simple design I hadn't considered- merely deeply recessing the winch (at the furthest forward point of the spare tire mount area) with the fairlead mounted to the bumper surface would do a good bit to accommodate for a side pull.

The swivel and lockdown was my initial idea, doing a slip plate like graders use (obviously much smaller scale but you get the idea), with a few pins to hold position.

Oh, and don't worry, I did have a WAY more complicated design about halfway though my brainstorming, for the winch to be fully recessed with a removable single center pulley that would allow for 90 degree pulls and that would have a gearing system in it such that that it would move slowly back and forth along a track as the winch spools in, automatically winding the cable neatly along the drum. (with small roller fairleads at the side exits and a normal sized roller fairlead at the rear exit) Told you I like to complicate things! LOL! (I quickly dropped that idea since the track would be a magnet for mud and crud, even if I tried to come up with a sealed system)

 

[Fabrik8]

Yeah, I think a levelwind system is slightly overkill.