Time to start planning my front 4 link. suggestions welcome

Erik

Erik

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Wilmington, NC
I'm startingt o get a shopping list for the parts i will need to cplete my front end's 4 link setup.

i don't know a whole lot about it, but i understand you can run with or without a trackbar... still unsure of the pros and cons of each method

i know i can runs coils and springs, coilover-springs, or air shocks... not interested in elliptical setups.

BTF has some sweet coil mounting buckets that use 2.5" (or maybe it was 3") coilover springs and the buckets/perches for both sides of the front end are about $80...... definatly looks pretty sweet....


i was looking at air shocks bc of how adjustable they are, and since i could technically just mount them to my existing shock hoops and axle tube shock mounts..... simple enough it seems..... but does anyone run them on the street? i want my yj to ride like a long armed tj.... smooth, predictable, etc.....

coilovers are expensive, but damn nice, and quite possibly worth the cost to me if i could get the ride quality i wanted with the huge assortment of spring rates and heights out there.....

coils and shocks are the most cost effective, but will also have the most guesswork associated with them, not to mention not nearly as tuneable for a smooth ride and great flex....


well then comes link choice. i was thinking 1.5" DOM with .25 wall and welding in threaded inserts, but then i was given the idea of running 1.75" DOM and tapping the threads into the tubing itself..... suggestions?

then comes my rod ends... heims? ok, what size? big ass 3/4" shanks? or is that overkill? what about johnny joints? what links would i use those on?

what about the geometry? what would be the best choice for a great riding mall queen? what about a hardcore off road only rock crawler? i want to be in between there somewhere with the least bit of compromise but i don't really understand where to start.


swaybars.... skyjacker, currie, teraflex, or an oem sway bar? ugh.... front and rear, or only front? time will tell....



as you can see, i am clueless. i take that back, i know what i think i want, but that will change daily up until the day everything is installed and i'm too broke to change my mind again.


some things i'm trying to keep in consideration.... i don't want to have to carry more than 2 extra links for trail spares..... i'll eventually swap in a small block... 350 or a 360 most likely..... i'll be buying parts slowly over the month month or two... or three.... so finding deals here and there would be nice.



ok, so let's here what you have to say. i hope to hear that air shocks will be great because they are a bit more affordable, but i don't see that being a reallity.

-Erik <--- would appreciate any links to relevant information as well
 
for my links I am using 2" .25 wall DOM with threaded inserts and 1.25 thread johnny joints. I would run a track bar if you drive it around quite a bit. It seems like it would be difficult to properly triangulate a front suspension setup with no track bar without a lot of bumpsteer (unless you are a great fabricator). Besides I have seen plenty of track bar set ups that have great flex.
 
First question.. full hydro steering, or anything else.. that will dictate how the suspension should be laid out. anything with a mechanical connection, you'll want a panhard bar that follows your drag link.

You could do regular coils and GOOD shocks.. something that you could upgrade to coilovers later... just another idea.

I wouldn't go less than 2" .250 for the lowers..

Joints, I like (obviously) the forged johnny joints or RE joints more than heims. RE's are adjustable, but are more expensive.
 
thanks for all the input.

currently i run normal power steering. i plan on a hydro assist once the 4 link is done. i would go full hydro but i am scared of driving a full hydro rig on the street... the thought of having a hose burst and having NO mechanical backup to keep me tracking straight as opposed to swerving into oncoming traffic scares the life out of me....

i had not looked into the re joints... i'll check those out.

any pics of everyone's setups? link geometry, brackets, trusses, etc?
 
i look at full hyrdro as the same risk as not having a emergency brake.

If you rip a brake line you don't have any brakes(well maybe just rears if it was a front but how manys rear brakes aren't doing shit)

The bigger concern i think is that if the motor quits you don't have any steering, thats what i would be concerned about
 
also the deciding factor on whether to run a panhard or not is determined mostly by the link setup, triangulated or not, and how much triangulation you can get with the clearances(oil pan, steering)

Also air shocks get really hot really fast and aren't really suitable for daily drivers
 
i don't think i'll have many clearance issues with my 4banger or the exhaust since when i redid it i tucked it all up real tight. i'll be stretching tje front forward 5-6" also which should make things a bit easier i think
 
87-95 rwd chevy astro steering box has the pitman arm shooting out the front of the box instead of the rear and it bolts right into a yj.....

my stretch is going to be whatever distance i need to keep the drag link "straight" from the box to the high steer arm... then i'm going to run my tie rod from the oem holes on the flat top knuckles since i don't feel like buying another set of high steer arms. only downside to the tie rod being like that is that it will now be lower and more prone to damage from rocks, but mounting it on the top side of the holes in the knuckles will put it about as high as the top of the axle tube.
 
Erik said:
i would go full hydro but i am scared of driving a full hydro rig on the street... the thought of having a hose burst and having NO mechanical backup to keep me tracking straight as opposed to swerving into oncoming traffic scares the life out of me....
Click to expand...

Because any of the 6 joints between your steering wheel and the knuckles could never fail, right?
 
First off, I would go 3 link with panhard or 4 link with panhard if you are goign to keep mechanical steering. For a street driven rig I would definitely keep the mechanical link and do hydro assist. With the proper ram/box/pump setup you can turn your tires with no problem.

Make sure you are set with your axles before you do this. It would suck to jump the gun and have to redo it with a different axle.

I would do cartridge joints and bushings if you are going to drive it regularly. Stay away from any small heims (yes, 3/4" is small.....) for a street driven rig. Yes, it does work for some but I would stick with something with a little more meat to it, especially since this is your first attempt. You need a little leeway.......

That being said ...... Let me know if we can help you out with any of the parts. I keep the threaded JJs, RE joints, Bushings, etc. in stock and do custom threaded links if you decide to go that way. Let me know if I can help you out.
 
Rich said:
Because any of the 6 joints between your steering wheel and the knuckles could never fail, right?
Click to expand...

i'm in total agreement with you but I see a hydro line failure a bit more likely. If i went full hydro I'm sure I'd get an uncountable number of people telling me i was an idiot for driving on the street and it scares me that it's possible one of them could be right. I'd love full hydro, but I plan to keep this as my daily driver as long as possible....






Thanks Andy.... I'll be sure to give you a call when I figure things out but I am definatly heading towards a panhard bar either way. As for axles, my dana 60 deal flopped and I wound up working out a trade for another HP44 that was already built. We'll take a poll later to see how long it takes for me to regret this. Either way, I'm pretty sure i'm staying away from heims for the most part....
 
I run a panhard with 'radius arms' under the front a CJ and have had great luck with it for several years and drive it to the trails and even pull a small trailer on the weekends (rebuilding a house). Works great, seems very stable/predictable you just have to watch for binding in the radius arms- whatever style you choose.
Also, I run large Johhny joints at the frame and bushings at the axle end with heims on the top bars. 4" TJ coils and single shocks- should go to better ones or double up for more control. She gets to bouncing on me in baja mode.
My next question to all those in the know is this- can you use the coilover springs by themselves as mentioned in this original post? That would solve my problems of spring drag on my frame with a narrowed D60. Seems like they would want to squirm all over the place since they are so narrow.
 
If you're building a linked suspension from scratch, I would not do a radius arm. 3 or 4 link IMO.
 
For a steetable rig with mechanical steering I would do a 4-link with a panhard bar. A little triangulation on the lowers and uppers to get them to hook to the frame. Use 2" x at least 1/4" wall DOM for the lowers, thicker if you don't have any laying around because it sucks to rebuild links every year. Uppers you can go with smaller tube. Probably go with threaded JJ on one end and a weld on bushing on the other to keep the ride nice. Built right it will still flex like crazy. The go ahead and shell out the cash for some coilovers. The mounts are easier to make than coils and shocks. The ride is 100% better, and you won't have that on the upgrade list anymore.
 
fyi: eriks rig already technically shouldnt be called streetable... so just imagine is a trail rig.. he just, drives it on the street :fuck-you:

how about a real motor before a 4link for the front:popcorn:
 
naaaah.


i'm in total agreement about the dual triangulated 4 link up front and if the panhard bar is needed due to my mechanical steering then so be it. i can always take that out of the equation if i go with full hydro steering.

as for link size, sounds like 2" is the bare minimum for the lowers but can you guys suggest a size for my lowers and uppers that would be ideal?

thanks for the insight on the joints and bushings. i am up in the air on sizes and what brands to go with. i got this picture from one of the threads i read and they look really nice, but i don't know what they are....

awww.pirate4x4.com_tech_billavista_PR_Joints_IMG_2107.jpg


anyone?



and burley, it's streetable :) after all, i drive it! you gotta see my new seats and tuffy center console too, hehe
 
From what I remember, you can't run a panhard on a triangulated 4-link.. it'll bind.
 
Rich said:
From what I remember, you can't run a panhard on a triangulated 4-link.. it'll bind.
Click to expand...

X2!

A dual triangulated four link will move up and down with no side to side movement. The trackbar/panhard bar will be trying to move the axle left to right as the suspension cycles up and down. You can't have both. It will bind and self destruct.
 
I think a good size for the lower links would be 2.25" OD with a .375" wall or 2.5" OD .5" wall. then you can use the threaded inserts for 1.25" JJs. A lot of people use 1.5" .250" wall for the uppers. I would go 2" .250" wall. If you go with a 3 link front with panhard then make your single upper link beefy since it will be taking a lot of force.
 
or 2" .500 lowers and 1.5 .250 uppers and just tap the steel and not deal with inserts.. ;)

Just don't run aluminum links.. you'll shoot your eye out. :p
 
ok keep in mind i have mechanical steering at this time...

can i run a dual triangulated 4 link up front without any worries?

or do i need either a 3 link with panhard bar OR a non triangulated 4 link with panhard bar?

if i didn't have to make a panhard bar i'd be pretty stoked since that's two less mounts to fabricate or buy, two less rod ends to buy, and one less link to make.......


as for tubing sizes, thank you. i wasn't sure what to run yet and it looks like i'm going to be getting lots of good advice from you folks. threaded inserts are easy, but they give me an opportunity for failure. how hard is tapping the link ends for joints? i can't imagine it would be very simple.....
 
With mechanical steering and a dual triangulated 4 link you would have crazy flex steer. Better off with a 4 link and panhard. I am not a fan of 3 link systems. Shear a bolt or snap a link and you are through. With a 4 link you can still limp out with minimal damage.

My understanding is that taping is not only difficult but the tools are expensive.
 
i know the taps are a bit costly but using them for the front and then later for the rear, they would be about the same as buying inserts but with less chance of failure.

so 4 link with panhard..... IF i was running full hydro then i could run dual triangulated 4 link without any flex induced steering, correct? perhaps i should through up my fingers to the world of safety guru's and just go full hydro.........




http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=534764

i'm not at home now and i don't have time to read this so i'm posting it here as a reminder to myself and quite possibly as a helpful thread for others.....
 
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