tow rig length?

[orange150]

I didn't want to hi jack that other thread in General chit-chat but my questions spawns from:

wheelbase is wayyyyyy too short to tow safely with. when that trailer starts moving around on you, you will find Jesus quick!

How do you determine what is too short? Is my extended cab short bed F250 too short for my 18' gooseneck? Why isn't a tractor truck too short for it's 53' trailer?

Why??

 

[gmcjimmy88]

Your truck come out close to the same as a regular cab long bed. I know that a longer wheelbase gives a better ride and seems to handle the load better but I don't see where you would have any issues with an 18 footer. Hell I am wanting to upgrade my 20 foot tag along to a 35-40 ft tag-a-long. DMV specifies overall length/

 

[adam greene]

i used to have a 01 powerstroke ext cab short bed done fine towin towing a 24ft tag along with 10k on it.

 

[JocoXJ]

It all depends on what type truck you are using 1/2 ton 3/4 or 1 ton and what type load . I have been transporting vehicles for a long time on a 3 car wedge. I have used my 04 F450 reg cab for a long time and it does great, but my previous truck a crewcab F350 rode 10 times better and was much more comfortable. Just my $ 0.02

 

[orange150]

But how come the K5 is too short to tow an XJ? It doesn't seem much shorter than my F250... granted it weighs much less

 

[JocoXJ]

Being that your K5 has rear leafs instead of coils you may be able to upgrade your springs or add some helper leafs and be fine. Most time when you ( loose) a trailer it comes from the tow vehicle not being rated to pull that heavy of a load, mostly the suspension is not strong enough to handle the weight of the load and when you mix that with speed it's a bad day for everyone.

 

[SPOA87YJ]

I haven't read the other thread so I probably shouldn't be posting because I don't know the whole story. However, I used to tow my yj all the time with my K5 years ago. It was slow going and it didn't see any speeds over 55-60mph. I usually just towed it to URE. I did have working trailer brakes with a controller and never encountered a problem. I wouldn't suggest going to Boone with it but for a short trip to URE it did fine for me at the time.

Now that I'm a older and just a little bit wiser, I don't look back and say that it was dumb but it certainly wasn't the best set up! At the time it was what I had available, so I used what I had. I now drive a CCLB Duramax and well....the two don't exactly compare .

Since we're talking about wheelbase, I also towed my yj with a reg. cab/short bed 1500. Both this truck and the K5 had a 5.7l in them. I would bet they have a similar wheelbase. Even so, the truck pulled much better than the K5. At the time, I hadn't driven much else so I didn't really notice and thought the truck was a huge upgrade from the blazer. Having towed alot more a longer wheelbase certainly helps.

My one disclaimer to anyone towing with a 1/2 ton chevy is 700R4's are not meant to be towed with!

 

[Hurdt299]

I didn't want to hi jack that other thread in General chit-chat but my questions spawns from:
How do you determine what is too short? Is my extended cab short bed F250 too short for my 18' gooseneck? Why isn't a tractor truck too short for it's 53' trailer?
Why??

This is determined by several factors. The gooseneck applies side to side force directly to the tires. A tag along is multiplied by the distance from the rear axle to the hitch. This can double or almost triple the amount of force applied to the tires. This is why goosenecks rarely sway when towed. This force also applies to the pressue applied downward on the springs. It is multiplied when using a tag along by the distance away from the hitch.

The reason a tractor can handle a 53' trailer, in a brief summary, is because it has 8 16 ply tires and suspension that is designed to handle the weight.

The K-5 has very light duty springs, probably 6 ply tires, and is very short which puts more force to the front end. Not to mention it probably has a small block and a 700R4 which isn't the most desired combination for towing. Being so short causes it to steer quicker, which when towing is a bad thing. The same side to side force I spoke of earlier is also being applied to the front axle in the opposite direction it is applied to the rear end. The farther away from the rear axle it is, the less force is applied. Kind of the same way you get a longer breaker bar to break a bolt loose, because it applies more torque to the bolt when you apply the same pressure to it as you would a shorter bar. It's all about leverage. For example, if the hitch is 3 feet away from the rear end, and 100 lbs is applied to the hitch side to side, it results in roughly 300 lbs of torque applied to the rear end. If the front axle is 6 feet away from the rear axle, that would result is roughly 50 lbs of force applied to the front axle, using the rear axle as a fulcrum.

 

[lefty]

I once towed my K5 on a 17' bumper pull w/ one braking axle w/ a 04 Toyota 4Runner, from the coast to Mt. City. I swore that when I got home, safely, that I would never do that again! I learned real fast about to much weight and not enough tow rig. Traded the 4Runner for a Tahoe and just the over all difference in size w/ the Tahoe made alot of differance, not to mention everthing else.

 

[jeepinmatt]

It has to do with wheelbase and type of trailer, not overall length of vehicle.

The wheelbase of the vehicle basically determines how much leverage the vehicle has against the forces the trailer puts on the hitch, both vertically and horizontally (side to side. The simplest way to explain this would be to imagine trying to grab a single axle trailer at the tongue, and spin it around, versus a double or triple axle trailer. Ignoring the amount of tongue weight, the single axle would be pretty easy to spin around. The double or triple axle would be almost impossible. The farther apart the wheels are, the more difficult it is to move side to side. The longer the wheelbase of the vehicle, the more difficult it is for a trailer to cause it to sway. On a crew cab long bed truck, if the backend slides out 2-3 feet in the mud, it still pretty much goes in a straight line. On a 4wheeler, if the backend slides out 2-3ft, you are getting pretty close to sideways. That is why a longer wheelbase is better.

A bumper pull trailer also puts much greater side to side forces, while not providing additional traction for the truck like a gooseneck does. The bumper pull creates a fulcrum and lever, whereas the gooseneck rest on the fulcrum, so there is no leverage. A bumper pull pushes on the hitch about 3-4ft back from the rear axle, so there is basically a lever arm and the rear axle/tires serve as the fulcrum. If a trailer starts swaying, you can have <rough estimate> over a thousand pounds of force pushing side to side. The added leverage makes it more likely to swing the rear tires out. Also, a bumper pull lightens the load on the front because of the same leverage principal, which further complicates things. A gooseneck rests over the axle, eliminates the leverage, and does not lighten the frontend. Also, because of where the gooseneck mounts, the tongue weight can be higher, which gives better braking and control. I explained this a little in cltdba's thread, so I'll just copy/paste:

With trailer brakes and a weight distributing hitch, I wouldn't hesitate to pull a built XJ on a trailer with that truck. But trailer brakes are a huge part of the equation. Your truck's brakes can only employ the friction of the trucks tires, which is a direct function of weight. The truck alone weighs 6k lbs, and all the weight is on the 4 tires, so all of that weight goes into creating friction if all of your weight is on the truck. It all changes when you have a trailer.

If you are pulling 5000lbs, you have 6500lbs on the truck (figure 6k truck and 500lb tongue on trailer), and are creating the frictional force of 6500lbs, but you are trying to stop 11,000lbs. Mathematically speaking, that reduces your braking effectiveness by 60% (6500/11000). On top of that, the will still be pushing forwards as your truck is pushing back, which will make it want to wiggle and waller (technical terms) all over the place, further decreasing braking and control. Kinda like trying to push a rope.

Hope all this makes some sense. At the end of the day, it is a judgement call, and has a lot to do with your particular setup. There isn't a clear cut too short, but longer is better.

 

[Hurdt299]

It has to do with wheelbase and type of trailer, not overall length of vehicle.

The wheelbase of the vehicle basically determines how much leverage the vehicle has against the forces the trailer puts on the hitch, both vertically and horizontally (side to side. The simplest way to explain this would be to imagine trying to grab a single axle trailer at the tongue, and spin it around, versus a double or triple axle trailer. Ignoring the amount of tongue weight, the single axle would be pretty easy to spin around. The double or triple axle would be almost impossible. The farther apart the wheels are, the more difficult it is to move side to side. The longer the wheelbase of the vehicle, the more difficult it is for a trailer to cause it to sway. On a crew cab long bed truck, if the backend slides out 2-3 feet in the mud, it still pretty much goes in a straight line. On a 4wheeler, if the backend slides out 2-3ft, you are getting pretty close to sideways. That is why a longer wheelbase is better.

A bumper pull trailer also puts much greater side to side forces, while not providing additional traction for the truck like a gooseneck does. The bumper pull creates a fulcrum and lever, whereas the gooseneck rest on the fulcrum, so there is no leverage. A bumper pull pushes on the hitch about 3-4ft back from the rear axle, so there is basically a lever arm and the rear axle/tires serve as the fulcrum. If a trailer starts swaying, you can have <rough estimate> over a thousand pounds of force pushing side to side. The added leverage makes it more likely to swing the rear tires out. Also, a bumper pull lightens the load on the front because of the same leverage principal, which further complicates things. A gooseneck rests over the axle, eliminates the leverage, and does not lighten the frontend. Also, because of where the gooseneck mounts, the tongue weight can be higher, which gives better braking and control. I explained this a little in cltdba's thread, so I'll just copy/paste:


Hope all this makes some sense. At the end of the day, it is a judgement call, and has a lot to do with your particular setup. There isn't a clear cut too short, but longer is better.

I beat you to it but you worded it a little more clearly than me

 

[gmcjimmy88]

But how come the K5 is too short to tow an XJ? It doesn't seem much shorter than my F250... granted it weighs much less

A light trailer a set of helper springs or even air bags trailer brakes and maybe a set of leveling bars and you should have no troubles pulling an xj. The length does not dictate how much you can hual. If you still have the owners manual it will tell you what you are capable of towing. If a short vehicle is not capable of towing then an s-10 can;t tow anything. I think if you are smart stay within the vehicles capabilities and take a few extra steps of caution you should be fine.

I tow my 86 K2500 Burb on 37's sitting on a 20 foot full steel deck trailer with my 3/4 burb. I also have my 1500 burb set-up as a back up. I just got the weight distributing hitch, trailer brakes are hooked up and I have a set of 3/4 ton springs to add to the rear at some point. Is all that needed nope. Technically I can tow my burb with either one and be ok. But it is better to be extra safe than be s danger to the road

 

[jeepinmatt]

You posted my thoughts while I was typing, grrr.

The reason a tractor can handle a 53' trailer, in a brief summary, is because it has 8 16 ply tires and suspension that is designed to handle the weight.

Also, the weight of the trailer is pretty much equally distributed between the truck tires and the trailer tires, so when you factor in the weight of the truck, the truck is a lot heavier than the trailer.

 

[Hurdt299]

You posted my thoughts while I was typing, grrr.
Also, the weight of the trailer is pretty much equally distributed between the truck tires and the trailer tires, so when you factor in the weight of the truck, the truck is a lot heavier than the trailer.

Haha well maybe with both our explainations it's crystal clear

 

[gmcjimmy88]

I beat you to it but you worded it a little more clearly than me

It has to do with wheelbase and type of trailer, not overall length of vehicle.

The wheelbase of the vehicle basically determines how much leverage the vehicle has against the forces the trailer puts on the hitch, both vertically and horizontally (side to side. The simplest way to explain this would be to imagine trying to grab a single axle trailer at the tongue, and spin it around, versus a double or triple axle trailer. Ignoring the amount of tongue weight, the single axle would be pretty easy to spin around. The double or triple axle would be almost impossible. The farther apart the wheels are, the more difficult it is to move side to side. The longer the wheelbase of the vehicle, the more difficult it is for a trailer to cause it to sway. On a crew cab long bed truck, if the backend slides out 2-3 feet in the mud, it still pretty much goes in a straight line. On a 4wheeler, if the backend slides out 2-3ft, you are getting pretty close to sideways. That is why a longer wheelbase is better.

A bumper pull trailer also puts much greater side to side forces, while not providing additional traction for the truck like a gooseneck does. The bumper pull creates a fulcrum and lever, whereas the gooseneck rest on the fulcrum, so there is no leverage. A bumper pull pushes on the hitch about 3-4ft back from the rear axle, so there is basically a lever arm and the rear axle/tires serve as the fulcrum. If a trailer starts swaying, you can have <rough estimate> over a thousand pounds of force pushing side to side. The added leverage makes it more likely to swing the rear tires out. Also, a bumper pull lightens the load on the front because of the same leverage principal, which further complicates things. A gooseneck rests over the axle, eliminates the leverage, and does not lighten the frontend. Also, because of where the gooseneck mounts, the tongue weight can be higher, which gives better braking and control. I explained this a little in cltdba's thread, so I'll just copy/paste:


Hope all this makes some sense. At the end of the day, it is a judgement call, and has a lot to do with your particular setup. There isn't a clear cut too short, but longer is better.

I agree longer is best but, With a weight distrobuting hitch sway control, trailer brakers and helpers springs he would be fine. I would not try to pull anything heavier than an xj but that is just my personal preference.

it would be like saying I can't haul a twin to my towrig becuase it would be too much too handle?

 

[Hurdt299]

I agree longer is best but, With a weight distrobuting hitch sway control, trailer brakers and helpers springs he would be fine. I would not try to pull anything heavier than an xj but that is just my personal preference.
it would be like saying I can't haul a twin to my towrig becuase it would be too much too handle?

Never said it couldn't be done. Just explaining why longer is better and why goosenecks are better. Sometimes you have to improvise and make what you have work for your application.

 

[gmcjimmy88]

Never said it couldn't be done. Just explaining why longer is better and why goosenecks are better. Sometimes you have to improvise and make what you have work for your application.

Agreed all the above LOL.

 

[witchdoctor]

your 250 will do just fine.

 

[orange150]

your 250 will do just fine.

I'm not worried about me, I just wanted to know why wheelbase was so important... I'll pull an 80' trailer if I feel I'm able to...