Trees and the law of conservation of mass

[RatLabGuy]

So, I just can't wrap my head around trees.
Not the usual awe of how they can be so sturdy, strong, long-lived...
but where the f%ck the mass comes from.

It's amazing.
You start off w/ this little seed, < a gram. put it in the dirt, add water.
Over time it grows, you get a sprout, a chute, it gets bigger.
Over like 5-10 years it becomes this giant tree. hundreds to even thousands of pounds.

Where the hell does the mass come from? It's amazing. It's like it just appears from nowhere. Law of Conservation of Mass says it has to come from somewhere. Of course there's a ton of water in it, but what else? Look at the ground it grew in - it didn't disappear.
I mean, technically, yes, I know it's taken from the environment, but it's anything but obvious.

Animals, kids, insects... they eat other stuff, I can see things being consumed, I can see where the mass comes from, I can see them pooping out the leftovers.
W/ Trees it's really hard to see....

 

[kaiser715]

Hey, I thought *you* were the scientist??

Trees take in and convert CO2 to O2 and yep, carbon. Carbon is the building block of everything. Or something like that.

At least that's what I remember from schoo.....look! a puppy!!!

 

[RatLabGuy]

Hey, I thought *you* were the scientist??

Trees take in and convert CO2 to O2 and yep, carbon. Carbon is the building block of everything. Or something like that.

At least that's what I remember from schoo.....look! a puppy!!!

Oh I know, and there's a ton of water in there too.
But it's not just carbon and H20, all kinds of other elements and compounds.

I just think it's pretty amazing how all that mass is converted and consolidated w/o an obvious visible source.

And I find myself thinking about this every spring when I have to cut the f7cking forsythia bushes waaaay back and fill up the bed of my truck w/ the scraps.

 

[Ron]

Dave...puff,puff,pass my friendd

 

[mommucked]

.......cell division and meristems

 

[Tom@Hilltop_Machine]

And to think some trees also produce fruits and nuts too

 

[RatLabGuy]

And to think some trees also produce fruits and nuts too

yeah...

Tomato vines amaze me too, along w/ pumpkins.
You can grow huge line vines w/ big yield out of a little patch of dirt.

 

[R Q]

I have a nurseryman friend who knows these answers. He's one of the smartest people I know, not only about plants but a lot of things.

 

[broncosbybart]

I can't imagine how most seem to think that this all came about by chance. Equally strange is how far out there they view the creation narrative.

Sorry for the derail. I just find it as amazing how even the most 'basic forms' of life point to an intelligent creator. I find it much more sensible to believe in that.

For the garden, miracle grow and water works well enough.

 

[Fabrik8]

Oh I know, and there's a ton of water in there too.
But it's not just carbon and H20, all kinds of other elements and compounds.

I just think it's pretty amazing how all that mass is converted and consolidated w/o an obvious visible source.

And I find myself thinking about this every spring when I have to cut the f7cking forsythia bushes waaaay back and fill up the bed of my truck w/ the scraps.

There is an obvious visible source. You breathe part of it, and much of the rest falls from the sky. Yes, it's mostly CO2 and water, which gets turned into carbon and glucose during photosynthesis, and the glucose structures get turned into plant mass along with water. Soil only contributes a little, which is how pine trees grow in sand without being made of sand. If you can figure out how to make that happen, you could grow the best lumber ever (well, for siding or something probably).

My mom should be proud of me for knowing that, she works in a plant physiology lab doing molecular biology....stuff. My nerdy-ness comes from a good source.

 

[ManglerYJ]

And to think some trees also produce fruits and nuts too

So California is a tree?

 

[Fabrik8]

So California is a tree?

No man, the whole earth is a tree, and we're all its... like... leaves, man.

 

[Ron]

Its all a big chemical reaction fueled by solar energy.
Nitrogen and Phosphorous are fixated and bound with Carbon molecules.

Xylem and Phyllum cells multiply. Shit happens. The world spins. A logger cruises through chops them all down. A check arrives in the mail. Hookers and blow for all. The end.

 

[ManglerYJ]

 

[RatLabGuy]

I can't imagine how most seem to think that this all came about by chance. Equally strange is how far out there they view the creation narrative.

Sorry for the derail. I just find it as amazing how even the most 'basic forms' of life point to an intelligent creator. I find it much more sensible to believe in that.

For the garden, miracle grow and water works well enough.

So, I really don't want to derail this thread and go in this direction - but I should point out that, for non-believers and those fixated on science, this kind of argument is pointed to as an example of exactly why man developed the notion of God, higher beings, etc.
It's a way of explaining things that are otherwise unexplainable or difficult/impossible to wrap your head around. If you look across history, the amount of power/how much is explained by "must be God" had diminished greatly, as man has figured out more and more about how the world works.

 

[broncosbybart]

I would agree with you there.

According to the great and all knowing Wikipedia, conservation of mass occurs in a closed loop system. I don't know much about it but I could see our environment being an open loop. Also, the laws and rules of science are largely man made, based on testing and observation. Not saying they're all wrong but I don't think we see the whole picture

 

[Jus Jim]

Bill Nye the Science Communicator Guy runs through the forest sprinkling pixie dust all about causing wood growth in some species.

 

[ManglerYJ]

So, I really don't want to derail this thread and go in this direction - but I should point out that, for non-believers and those fixated on science, this kind of argument is pointed to as an example of exactly why man developed the notion of God, higher beings, etc.
It's a way of explaining things that are otherwise unexplainable or difficult/impossible to wrap your head around. If you look across history, the amount of power/how much is explained by "must be God" had diminished greatly, as man has figured out more and more about how the world works.

I agree with you, but only to a point. A lot of what man has "figured out" is the stuff that man can create/ use around what has already been created. Man figured out how to harness electricity and even to create it, but man still cannot accurately predict how and when lightning will strike. I'd say so many more signs point to the existence of an intelligent creator than do the concept of evolution/ Darwinistic thinking.

Here's my example:

Tree grows in the forest with no human beings to cut it down. It grows for many years, providing shade for undergrowth, converts CO2 to O2 for animals to breath, provides food for insects, those insects provide food for a woodpecker, whose brain is so cushioned that it does not mash itself into pudding while repeatedly slamming it's beak into the wood to seek out the insects, it eventually decays and falls over, deteriorating into carbon which feeds the soil and allows new growth. Worms eat the carbon and decay and turn it further into fertile soil so that the lone seed can create another tree in it's place, all without human hands involved. The entire cycle takes place independent of anything. All because it was DESIGNED to do so. Granted, some things can happen to change the cycle - a tree might get hit by lightning, causing the forest to burn, but that only makes the soil even more fertile.

My claim is that the woodpecker did not "evolve", but was designed the way it is with every detail thought out. The beak is harder then most other birds to penetrate wood. The brain is cushioned more than most other birds.... if it "evolved" then the initial woodpeckers would have snapped their beaks off trying to hit the wood. Those would have starved off Ones without the extra cushioning would have died off too. Every animal, bird insect, reptile, and vermin has a purpose that they were specifically designed for.

 

[Fabrik8]

Also, the laws and rules of science are largely man made, based on testing and observation.

Largely man-made, as in other creatures like squirrels, bears, deer, etc., are also working on unraveling the great mysteries of the natural world as well..? Interesting....

 

[336wheeler]

Water and growth of wood are the only sources of mass.

Energy for mass growth comes from photosynthesis process (which is actually only 2-3% efficient as a process, for all you solar power haters out there that think 18-22% efficiency is low).

So, the energy cycle for trees is actually not a closed loop process since that energy comes from outside our planet; just like any addition of mass that is associated with plant growth.

Put the bong down ehhhh

 

[Fabrik8]

My claim is that the woodpecker did not "evolve", but was designed the way it is with every detail thought out. The beak is harder then most other birds to penetrate wood. The brain is cushioned more than most other birds.... if it "evolved" then the initial woodpeckers would have snapped their beaks off trying to hit the wood. Those would have starved off Ones without the extra cushioning would have died off too. Every animal, bird insect, reptile, and vermin has a purpose that they were specifically designed for.

That's like saying that Ultra4 buggies must have been created without any previous history of wheeled vehicles, based solely on the premise that there's no way that a man pushing a hand cart with a single wooden wheel would be able to complete the King of the Hammers course in 7 hours.

 

[NC-V]

Ready for a 20 page thread with some Genuine Science of materials and religion? ... @marty79

 

[ManglerYJ]

That's like saying that Ultra4 buggies must have been created without any previous history of wheeled vehicles, based solely on that premise that there's no way that a man pushing a hand cart with a single wooden wheel would be able to complete the King of the Hammers course in 7 hours.

That's exactly what I was getting at.

 

[Reid]

must.
resist.
urge.
to jump into a creation/evolution debate.

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

I agree Dave......truly amazing. This guy is at chest high in my yard. One of several. And a baby for a lot of species.