Water damage repair at home...

rockcity

rockcity

everyday is a chance to get better
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Location
Greenville, NC
OK, I'm selling the house and I need to repair some floor joists due to VERY slight water damage. The buyer's inspector made note of the damage and his suggestion is not what I want to do. Its way too involved and expensive and IMO, not necessary...


There is moisture in the crawl space due to the main A/C duct condensating. This will be insulated more to take care of the moisture. But, I have to repair a few floor joists and some on the main girder. The damage is about 1/4" thick on the bottom 1/4 of the joists and is spotty on the floor joists in areas about 2' on either side of the girder. This damage is not significant enough to compromise the integrity of the floor joist, yet. But, it must be repaired. I can take care of this fairly easy with a sister joist.

My main concern is the main girder. Only the bottom 1/4" of the triple 2x10s is damaged however, the home inspector (not county inspector) said he was expecting to see the girder removed and a new section installed. This is going to be a major PITA and will be more $$$ than I want to spend.

I am a contractor and can do the work, but I don't know the correct way to repair this without replacing the main girder section, if any. Does anyone have any experience in this type of work? I feel awkward asking for help, but I specialize in heavy industrial construction and have no real experience in residential and even less in joist/girder repairs.

I want to repair this the fastest and cheapest way that will keep the house within code and pass inspection by the buyer's home inspector. I'm not as concerned about the inspector as I am about following code because regardless what the opinion of the inspector is, as long as I follow code I will be fine. Repair code is to meet regulations as current code regardless of the age of the house.

Already, the inspector said he expected to see treated lumber in there for the joists and girder but treated lumber is not required per NC code. So, my thoughts were that the inspector may be looking/expecting/recommending overkill and I don't want to spend $1000 when $200 will work.

Ideas? Options? Concerns?

I have researched this quite a bit in the last couple of days and have some ideas, but I'd like to get the opinions/suggestions of anyone that may have experience in this type of repair.

I have pics for anyone that is interested in offering any suggestions.

Help! I close on July 30th on the new house and need to get this house taken care of ASAP.

Thanks
 
Hire a Civil Engineer PE to design the fix. May only cost a few hundred for the stamped drawing and you can do the work as a contractor.

My $0.02
 
Hell, a structural engineer could probably do the calcs and demonstrate that 2x8s (for example) could carry the load, so the rotten portions aren't affecting the structure. (BTW - you want a structural engineer. Civil could probably do it, but their responsibility typically ends at the outside wall of the building. Wood frame loading calcs isn't something they're accustomed to doing.)

You don't really need an engineer to replace the girder, though. I don't think he's going to be able to tell you anything that you don't already know. If the girder has to be replaced, an engineer CAN NOT tell you anything about the means or methods by which that girder gets R&R'd. It's not covered under his liability policy.

My first guess would be that you'll have to place temporary beams under each of the sections of joists that the girder is supporting. Be sure to brace the joists so they can't lay over when they're cut loose from the girder. You can also brace the temporary beam back to the joists.

It shouldn't take much to pick up the house. A couple of 4-6 ton bottle jacks sitting on some solid concrete blocks (4x8x16s, but I've even used 12x12 pavers) would be plenty.

The only new stuff that you'd want to be pressure treated is anything that's resting on the foundation. There should be a treated sill plate between the joist framing and the top of the foundation wall. There should also be a piece of flashing (termite shield).

Can you get some photos of the damage? It might help explain what you're working with.
 
offer the buyer cash at closing instead of repairing it. It is amazing at how cash talks. That way it is not your headache and they can have it fixed anyway they want.
 
I've done alot of this lately. I'm no pro and basically self taught so I'm sure there is more ways to skin this cat. Money and time are always my main concerns anymore. Sister board is way to go. Treated is only required by code if it touches block or concrete and recommended for any repair where water damage is prone again such as below bathroom and kitchen, ect.
Anyways, be sure that the house won't fall in if it's removed. Then chip out any rot or weak wood cause water soaked wood attracts bugs. Cordless drill with round wire brush is excellent for this and also a screwdriver and hammer. You can treat any mold with bleach in a squirt bottle. Put a fan or bunch of fans on the water board to help dry it out. Be sure to put a stop to the water that's leaking! Might want to put some spacers between the old and new joist to stay off of it so you don't trap moisture. Any inspector would sign off on it if just sistered. Mine did on my first house I bought. He recommended treated though since my house didn't have treated above the foundation. Wasn't required til 1982 and mine was built in 1981.
Alot of times you make plans to do something like this but the plans change when you go to do it. But best advise I have is do your best and DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!!!

Hope that helps! I just got through sistering a joist last weekend on the house I just bought and even had to jack it up to make up for the old one sagging. I wouldn't buy a house unless it's falling apart and I get it basically for free. :-) But I'm still a tad young and I'm sure my philosophy will change with age.
 
SEAIRESCUE said:
Hire a Civil Engineer PE to design the fix. May only cost a few hundred for the stamped drawing and you can do the work as a contractor.
My $0.02
Click to expand...

Ha, if you find a PE to stamp anything for a few hundred dollars I'd go for it... I think the old saying is $1000/page...

The design will be instanely easy BUT, the liability isnt worth it at least IMO...

First thing I'd do is get a second opinion....

EDIT: Most Civil's could do the calcs.. may have to grab the old structures book but the loading calcs are easy...
 
I got my hands on the 2006 code book and am reviewing it. Off the top of my head, it looks like the triple 2x10s on the girder can withstand a max pier spacing at 7'-7". The pier spacing I have is right at 6' on center. So, it appears like the girder and pier spacing is more than sufficient for this house. With the minimal damage on the boards, I would assume I can de-rate them to triple 2x8s, which have a max span of 6'-3".

So, I am assuming that I can dry out the condensation from the duct, wrap the duct to combat the condensation. Then treat the wood with CPES or Liquid Wood resin for further strength and waterproofing. By the chart in the code book, triple 2x8s would do the job, so there is no reason to replace the 2x10s that have only 1/4" of damage on the bottom side. I'm still more than sufficient on strength.

However, the floor joists are only 6" shorter than their max allowable span, so I'd just put a sister joist on there and be done with it.

I don't think I need an engineer to do the clacs as long as what I have meets or exceeds code. If I was borderline, I think it would be a good idea.

I'll try to post some pics later today.

Thanks all.
 
IF you decide to do fix it that way I REALLY like getting it signed off by an engineer. It gives the buyer some comfort, AND it helps you document the situation if there is an issue.

J
 
A 2x10 with 2" of rot does not have the same strength as a 2x8.
[I know you dont have 2" Im just using it for illustrative purposes]
When you damage the leading edge of a board you induce a splinter and tear point. A 2x10 with 1/4" of rot has more like the weight bearing of a 2x4 as it has lost all its deflection qualities, since rot will not deflect it will instead separate.

In the grand scheme of things boards are cheap, and inspectors are allowed to have their own professional opinion. Remember the code is a minimal acceptable standard, it is entirely possible that the inspector could look at an up to code fix and deem it unsafe, at which point you have given your buyer a back out option.

I would either A) fix it to the inspectors recommendation, or B) go straight to a structural PE and have him give a design recommendation C) Throw cash at the buyer to fix themselves....
 
If I was a normal buyer, I'd be satisfied with pictures and documentation along with approval from my inspector. But I'm not normal and with the seller showing me hands on exactly what he done would do me...
 
SkyHiK5 said:
A 2x10 with 2" of rot does not have the same strength as a 2x8.
[I know you dont have 2" Im just using it for illustrative purposes]
When you damage the leading edge of a board you induce a splinter and tear point. A 2x10 with 1/4" of rot has more like the weight bearing of a 2x4 as it has lost all its deflection qualities, since rot will not deflect it will instead separate.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. Or at least I'd like for you to tell that to the 2x8 I just got through scabbing that's held up my Kitchen for 88 years... :flipoff2: It had more than 2" total damage at one spot.
Engineering has no leverage over a field condition. I am a Civil Engineering Designer and I would NEVER question a good Surveyor even though they've came in with some crazy stuff from the field. A raised eye brow at most but you can't go by numbers for actual conditions 75% of the time. Calculations are only there to give a round-a-bout guess with the design needing to be greater.
In other words, I don't think a sole on here with every amount of knowledge and resources available can tell Rob what his board will hold up better than Rob after he crawls under there, looks at it and kicks on it a little so-to-speak.
Here's what I've learned working on my wore out houses. Water damage follows grain lines. Wood is fiber and whicks the water so to speak until the water slowly evaporates. When I chipped out my bad wood, the knots stood alone with the damage wrapping around following the grain. Not every piece of wood is cut with perfectly straight grains..:shaking:
 
OK, I just crawled out from under the house and have a good feeling that I will come out better than I had originally thought.

My pier center to center is 5'-6" and the house is 28' wide. According to NC code, the max allowable span on 3 2x10s is 7'-7". The max span for 3 2x8s is 6'-3". There is no listing for 3 2x6s in the table... The max span for 2 2x10s is 6'-1". It looks like the main girder was overbuilt. I'd assume because it was cheaper to buy all 2x10s for the floor and girders than to try to piece together 2x8s, 2x10s, etc. etc. etc.

My reasoning may be wrong, but IMO, I still have more than enough strength to meet code. Theoretically, I could cut the bottom 2" of girder out and still meet code. All the rot would be gone and code would still be met. So, I am assuming that if I treat the rotted area and kill the fungi/spores/etc. and waterproof the wood to prevent future issues, I should still be OK. It may not be what the inspector wants to see, but if the repairs still meet code, then the opinion of the inspector is just that, an opinion. Everyone has their own opinion, however, the code is not opinion but fact. If I make the repairs to code, the buyers cannot dispute that regardless of what their inspector's opinion is.

Is my reasoning for the repairs incorrect? The floor is NOT squeaking, sagging, etc. etc.

BTW, they are getting an FHA loan, so I'm guessing the inspector and lender will want as much repair done as they can get even though what I will propose still meets and exceeds current code.

PS, forgot to bring the camera to work with pictures... maybe tonight.
 
VortecJeep said:
offer the buyer cash at closing instead of repairing it. It is amazing at how cash talks. That way it is not your headache and they can have it fixed anyway they want.
Click to expand...

I know you're gung-ho about fixing this, but have you given thsi approach some serious thought?

get the buyer on the phone, and offer to pay him cash to fix it "as he pleases". If the damage really is that minimal, then we all know damn well that he wil leither (a) do nothing or (b) fix it cheaply, as you plan to do. He'll see it as cash in his pocket.
IMO, everybody wins this way - you get off w/o spending alot of time/effort on it, and he gets cash.
 
My realtor suggested following the inspectors recommendations :shaking: because he said that regardless, if the inspector doesn't like the repairs, he'll fail it and the buyers will want it fixed even more.

I told the realtor that I would treat the moisture issue which was left out of the inspector's report...:shaking:

Then I'll install 3 sister floor joists. But, the rest of the joists and the main girder I'll treat with a chemical resin that is injected into the wood and fills the voids caused by rot, thus restoring the integrity of the wood (sometimes stonger than new wood). With the girder overbuilt to the degree that it is (per code), there shouldn't be any issues with this fix. If the buyers want the girder replaced, I'll follow the absolute minimum to save $$$ and labor and it will end up being weaker than what is in there now...

I think I may have the issue taken care of. I'm worried about the realtor and inspector. I told the realtor not to worry about the opinion of the inspector as long as the house and repairs are to code

we'll see what happens this weekend.
 
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