Well pump?

[RatLabGuy]

I am suspicious of my well pump. It is an old school jet pump in the basement. No idea on age, it "looks old", the model/serial plate is worn off.
The regulator technically is a 20/40, years ago I adjusted it to 30/50 w/o issue.
last week I was down there and noticed it made a funny rattle once or twice while running, but haven't heard heard it since and pressure has been ok.
This morning as I finished up my shower the water pressure just died. Opened a sink valve, got very little.
Pressure gauge I added right after the tank said only 15 psi. Checked the filter, water was a bit silty but nothing obvious, cleared it, put in new filter for good measure. Breaker wasn't tripped but I flipped it anyway. Shortly after that, pump shot on. I noticed it wouldn't seem to go much past 40 psi, just kept running. So I flipped the breaker to stop it.
After awhile I flipped it back, opened a valve and let it run down. Pump kicked on like normal, got up to 40 quickly but took what seemed like forever to get up to 50. It did kick off as it's supposed to.

So - does this indicate the pump is on it's way out? It's normal for it to have to run to rebuild pressure while we're showering. I'm wondering if it just couldn't keep up, got too hot and shut down.
House holds pressure fine. Doesn't sounds like anything w/ the tank/bladder.

... for years I've been wanting to replace this thing and move up to 40/60 pressure 'cause washing cars sucks...

 

[Caver Dave]

@Tater had a similar issue for several months... was fine 95% of the time, the other 5% (usually just after getting soaped down ), the pressure would die.
We checked the pressure switch, a few weeks later replaced the pressure switch, and ultimately after some months, troubleshot it as being a bad in-well pump.

IF: the pressure is down, the switch is made, voltage to the pump and it ain't running...

 

[RatLabGuy]

Thanks.
I guess the direct question is, when a pump is getting old - or near it's end of life, does it just get to where it can't build as much pressure? Like an old man who just can't run as fast?
I'd always assumed failure was all or nothing, e.g. motor burnout.

 

[C.Berry]

I have jet pump in our rental below my house last year it wasn't building pressure and slowly got worse replaced and no problems! It also had a rattle to it when first kicking on!

 

[catfishblues]

The pump itself is probably still rebuildable to some extent if the motor is good, but pumps are also relatively inexpensive and peace of mind is priceless. Sounds like the veins are wearing out. If you had left it at 20/40, it probably would have lasted another 20 years!

 

[RatLabGuy]

If you had left it at 20/40, it probably would have lasted another 20 years!

Maybe, but getting a halfway decent shower every day is worth it

 

[shawn]

I agree - sounds like the vanes in the pump aren't holding pressure. Drop the regulator back down to 20/40 for the time being, but plan on replacing/rebuilding the pump soon.

 

[RatLabGuy]

I agree - sounds like the vanes in the pump aren't holding pressure. Drop the regulator back down to 20/40 for the time being, but plan on replacing/rebuilding the pump soon.

Yep I dropped it back down this morning. I'm starting to hunt for pumps now. Just have to figure out what I really need.
And, if I'm going through all that, if it's worth it to just go ahead and replace the old tank too and not have to worry about any of this system again for a long time.

 

[Ron]

Do not go to Lowes or HD for your pump

 

[shawn]

Plumbing supply. There's one in Westminster by the airport, but that's probably too far for you to go.

 

[OnlyOneDR]

The impeller most likely is not worn at all. The rattle you are hearing is probably the bearings on the motor shaft. I pulled mine and took it to a motor shop to have the bearings done two years ago. While I had it apart I changed the shaft seal for the pump.

My vote is that the pressure switch is probably going bad or is plugged up with gunk. They can collect junk inside the diaphragm and quit working right. There should be a check valve (called a "foot valve") that holds pressure once the pump cuts off and that will be down in the well on a deep-well jet pump. These can fail to close properly and bleed your pressure down *after* the pump cuts off and you are sitting on the pressure held by the pressure tank.

As far as the pressure in the house, make sure that the plumbing in the house can handle 60psi before cranking it up. I run a 40/60 switch on mine but my house is all copper.

 

[RatLabGuy]

So in shopping for a replacement pumps, is there a specific spec/feature to look out for?
E.g. the current one is 1/2 hp, 3750 RPM 10.5A.
Would a higher RPM have a higher flow rate? Or just have to have more HP? It's always been the case that if somebody is showering, it can't quite make it all the way back up to >~43 psi until they stop (e.g. can't surpass the flow rate of the shower) so it just runs the whole time until they stop.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Your well might have a tag on it that lists the pump depth and flow rate in gpm. You can use that information to size the pump. Mine is about 200ft deep and capable of 10gpm, and I have a 3/4hp pump. It can only pump about 6gpm max over a sustained period. I run my pressure switch hot, at like 60/80psi. You can glean a lot of info from the Mfg pump curves and tech sheets like this one:
http://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/2012/07/B5-25GS-R5.pdf

Breaker wasn't tripped but I flipped it anyway. Shortly after that, pump shot on. I noticed it wouldn't seem to go much past 40 psi, just kept running. So I flipped the breaker to stop it.
After awhile I flipped it back, opened a valve and let it run down. Pump kicked on like normal, got up to 40 quickly but took what seemed like forever to get up to 50. It did kick off as it's supposed to.

Assuming the pump is 230v, that almost sounds like one leg of the breaker was tripped and the breaker is going bad.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Your well might have a tag on it that lists the pump depth and flow rate in gpm. You can use that information to size the pump. Mine is about 200ft deep and capable of 10gpm, and I have a 3/4hp pump. It can only pump about 6gpm max over a sustained period. I run my pressure switch hot, at like 60/80psi. You can glean a lot of info from the Mfg pump curves and tech sheets like this one:
http://documentlibrary.xylemappliedwater.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/22/files/2012/07/B5-25GS-R5.pdf

Assuming the pump is 230v, that almost sounds like one leg of the breaker was tripped and the breaker is going bad.

Well is actually buried. All I know is there's handwriting on the basement wall besidet he pump saying "well is 11.5' out, 2' from end of house" lol. That's not allowed here anymore but was common back in the 60s.
So I don't know how deep it is. Only guessing it's between 25 and 75ish feet b/c I have a two-line jet pump in the basement (not submersed). That seems to be the norm in this area.
Hm, I wonder if the county would have any records indicating the depth.

I'm also assuming that the jet is inside the well, since there's a tube going back down. Swung by the local Ferguson store to get prices, guy suggested it's possible the jet might be getting a little clogged or the seal breaking down.

And it's 110v.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Well is actually buried. All I know is there's handwriting on the basement wall besidet he pump saying "well is 11.5' out, 2' from end of house" lol. That's not allowed here anymore but was common back in the 60s.
So I don't know how deep it is. Only guessing it's between 25 and 75ish feet b/c I have a two-line jet pump in the basement (not submersed). That seems to be the norm in this area.
Hm, I wonder if the county would have any records indicating the depth.

I'm also assuming that the jet is inside the well, since there's a tube going back down. Swung by the local Ferguson store to get prices, guy suggested it's possible the jet might be getting a little clogged or the seal breaking down.

And it's 110v.

We'll then ignore everything I said, haha. Totally different system than I'm familiar with.

 

[OnlyOneDR]

Well is actually buried. All I know is there's handwriting on the basement wall besidet he pump saying "well is 11.5' out, 2' from end of house" lol. That's not allowed here anymore but was common back in the 60s.
So I don't know how deep it is. Only guessing it's between 25 and 75ish feet b/c I have a two-line jet pump in the basement (not submersed). That seems to be the norm in this area.
Hm, I wonder if the county would have any records indicating the depth.

I'm also assuming that the jet is inside the well, since there's a tube going back down. Swung by the local Ferguson store to get prices, guy suggested it's possible the jet might be getting a little clogged or the seal breaking down.

And it's 110v.

Modern jet pumps can go deeper but you're probably spot on for the age of the system. The trick here (and I hope the guy at Ferguson told you the same) is that the pump and jets are matched to each other so if you change the pump, especially on an up-size, you may not get the performance you are hoping for. This was the reason I had my pump motor rebuilt instead of replacing it; I didn't want to pull up all the pipe for my well to replace the jet and foot valve. I did re-wire mine to run on 240V instead of 120V, I swapped breakers in the panel and re-wired the pump motor (it was dual-voltage capable). Only real reason I wanted to do that was for a lower locked-rotor current on the pump when it started because with it on the same bus as some of the lighting in my house you would get the tiniest flicker. That's gone now.

 

[RatLabGuy]

Modern jet pumps can go deeper but you're probably spot on for the age of the system. The trick here (and I hope the guy at Ferguson told you the same) is that the pump and jets are matched to each other so if you change the pump, especially on an up-size, you may not get the performance you are hoping for. This was the reason I had my pump motor rebuilt instead of replacing it; I didn't want to pull up all the pipe for my well to replace the jet and foot valve. I did re-wire mine to run on 240V instead of 120V, I swapped breakers in the panel and re-wired the pump motor (it was dual-voltage capable). Only real reason I wanted to do that was for a lower locked-rotor current on the pump when it started because with it on the same bus as some of the lighting in my house you would get the tiniest flicker. That's gone now.

Yes, guy at Ferguson did specifically mention that the jet and pump were matched, he quoted them to me as a set.
Also it looks like, based on the gpm tables for the models, it's really the jet, not so much the pump that improves the performance. E.g. in the one 1/2 HP model pump he was quoting me they have 3 different jets, highest being 50% more GPM at the same well depth.

Even though the well is not deep, I'm not the least bit excited about digging that thing up to replace the jet. Might be an OK spring project but not when it's 16 degrees and windy and 2" snow and ice outside.

 

[RatLabGuy]

So the plot thickens.
All week it's generally been ok. Seems like it's been taking a bit for the last few PSI but working ok.
Well tonight it had quit completely (went to start the wash - YAY the pipes unfroze - and just a trickle... doh).
Checked it out and pump was hot, had shut down. turned off the breaker, let it sit awhile. Once it felt cool, flipped breaker,it turned right on.
Buuut - after lots of running, wouldn't go past 20 psi. eventually got hot and quit.

That's when I noticed the filter housing was murky. emptied it again - full of reddish silt. Filter has a nice dark red tint to it now. See pic.
Note, I replaced the filter last weekend when this first cropped up.

It's cooling off now, I'll let it pressurize once w/o the filter and see if it can make it.
But I'm wondering now if there's something going on down in the well?

Why does this !@#$ thing have to be buried. Ugh.

 

[RatLabGuy]

yep, w/o the filter in place, it pressurized OK. I cleaned out the filter and put it back in. Repressurized ok. re-started the laundry so it could empty and go back up.... Have a couple of gauges on it post-filter, which what I normally read by... added one to the tank drain before the filter for comparison, while it's building up, there's a good 8 psi difference, but once it kicked off at high pressure that dropped to ~3-4 psi difference.

I really wish I'd had that other lower guage on it earlier when it wouldn't keep up b/c I now highly suspect that the crap in the filter housing was preventing the flow.

 

[drkelly]

 

[RatLabGuy]

Well the plot thickens. Came home the other night and noticed pump was running. Didn't think much of it but after a few mins it was still going.
Well down and looked, holy crap the gauges were at like 75 psi! I immediately flipped the breaker.
Pump was nice and hot - not sure why the heat protection didn't kick in.
When i flipped the breaker on, it started right up again still trying to add even more!
I took the cover off the pressure switch and bumped it, it shut of quickly.
So clearly the pressure switch wasn't working right.

I got to looking at it closely and noticed the contacts were almost totally gone, worn out - see first pic. Also the jacket on one of the motor leads is a little dark like it got hot. No idea how old this switch is so I de3cided to just replace it.
Put on a new 30/50 switch.
In the process I learned the water up under it at the inlet was nasty - dark black and a little sticky. After swapping it out I took the baffle off of the old one - see the 2nd pic. Caked up w/ tons of black stuff. I guess it's just murk that's been building up? Even after cleaning it out as good as I could, it was very much pitted and permanently colored like it's been there awhile. I'm sure this is what was causing the switch to fail.

This makes me wonder though what kind of crap may be built up in the pump? Maybe that's why it's starting to show signs of struggling?
While the water was off I went ahead and pulled the bad gauge off of the port on the pump... the inside of the hole was also full of black gunk. I scooped as much out w/ a wire as I could. Figured that was why the gauge didn't work, unfortunately it still doesn't, but maybe it now has crap in the gauge itself.

 

[OnlyOneDR]

I have a friend that has had issues with this lately as well. Pressure switch diaphragm gets plugged with crap after only a year or two even though their water is generally clear. Causes the pump to have issues running.