What to do? (Dealership/tire balancing)

jeepinmatt

jeepinmatt

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I'm trying to sell the wife's 4runner. I took it to Toyota of Gastonia week before last for oil change and tire balancing. The tires were fine, but you could feel an ever so slightly shake on occasion at higher speeds. The tires are stock size 265/60r18 Dick Cepek Trail Country that I bought new. They have 20k miles on them and are still at about 65% tread. Ive had them balanced before elsewhere when the 4runner still had michelins, and it was never perfect, until the dealer did it and they were fantastic. So ive been having the wife get them balanced about every 10k miles, which only once a year.

So the dealer balanced the tires, and the road home from the dealer is country backroads with nothing over about 50mph and they seemed fine. The next time I drove it was to meet some potential buyers, and as soon as I got on the interstate, I had a constant steering wheel shake from about 60-70mph. I informed the buyer of this, and told them I'd have it fixed Monday morning. Took it back to Toyota of Gastonia, and they rebalanced them. I'm pretty sure it's now worse than the first time they balanced them, and at a wider range of speeds. I know in the past, they have used stick on weights on the inside of the wheel. It was the same tech on the balance and rebalance, and both times they used hammer on weights on the outside. I've read that 4runners are very sensitive to balance issues, and that you're supposed to use a particular type of adapter the holds the wheel by the lugs, and use dual plane balancing. It appears they did dual plane balancingb because on one wheel the weights are about 180 degrees apart, and two wheels have the weights about 45 degrees apart, and the 4th has them in the same location circumferentially. I'm tempted to take all the weights off, drive it, and see if it's better. Some of them are the big ol 3" long weights that I've seen used on wheels with mud tires.

So if you've read this far, thanks! Haha. My dilemma is: Do I take it back to Toyota and have them "fix" it a 3rd time? Take it somewhere else and ask Toyota to refund me for the balancing? Or just rip the weights off and send it? The potential buyer wants to buy it, but they understandably want me to sort out the balance issue first. I figure if I take it back to Toyota, they will tell me it's those "aggressive" tires causing the issue and they are not at fault. But in the past they have done a better job than other places, so I'm also reluctant to take it elsewhere. I wish I hadn't done anything, because it was practically unnoticeable before this saga started.
 
I might would knock off the weights and take it back and tell them you want stick on weights only.

Or take to a different Toyota place.

Have you tried rotating the tires?

Put the front's on the rear, will take away the steering feedback.
 
If you put it up on four jack stands and run it up to cruising speed in 4 high you will be able to determine which tire is out of balance or out of round
 
In regards to your 3" description of weights, & cross weights, I'd be thinking, That's a Lot of weight for street tires! I have no idea of "Toyota may have a Special Balance''. Only thing I might add, is one time I couldn't get the "shake" out of New Good Years on a New Cherokee. Four Try's, at 3 shops, & they finally found the bad wheel. Broke it down, & found about 10 oz. of water in the tire!
 
First, does it do it after rotating the tires?
You may have a progressing tire wear problem, which can feel like a tire balance problem at certain speeds if you have big squirmy tread blocks. Should be a visible wear problem though, and would also likely have speed dependent noise as well.

Find a place with a Hunter 9700 balance machine, which is probably what the dealer has. It's a lot more advanced than most machines on the market for balancing algorithms and vibration, and does a nice dynamic (dual plane) balance. 9700s also do road force balancing, which can sometimes be helpful.

You also need to get the wheel runout checked, which could be a big factor here. High runout can cause all kinds of problems, and you can't solve that by balancing.

If you have a significant amount of weight 180 degrees apart, I'd question a few things about the quality of balance machine first, or wheel runout.

Also find a place that uses a lug flange plate, which is what you're talking about with the lug pins that press against the lug seats. Haweka makes the good ones. That type of flange plate has a lot more bearing area than the universal stuff that just presses in the area around the hub bore.
 
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I had a bent wheel cause that once. You could barely see it, and as long as you kept that wheel on the rear of the car it was fine, but would cause the steering wheel to shake like hell if it got put on the front.
 
that there are weights 180° from one another says they didn’t remove the old weights before they tried to rebalance, and probably just tossed the wheel up in the balancer with little regard to fit up. (rework attitude)

it is possible you have a belt in a tire letting go which would throw off balance randomly as it’s moving around while spinning.
 
Throw some antifreeze in the tires via the valves and call it a day. :D

Then if that doesn't work, take it back to the dealer and watch them have fun trying to figure out the balancing like that! :popcorn:

Blkvoodoo said:
that there are weights 180° from one another says they didn’t remove the old weights before they tried to rebalance, and probably just tossed the wheel up in the balancer with little regard to fit up. (rework attitude)

it is possible you have a belt in a tire letting go which would throw off balance randomly as it’s moving around while spinning.
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this is where my money is too. Not so sure on the belt thing but he 180 out thing sounds like a lazy tech.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
I might would knock off the weights and take it back and tell them you want stick on weights only.

Or take to a different Toyota place.

Have you tried rotating the tires?

Put the front's on the rear, will take away the steering feedback.
Click to expand...
I'll rotate them tomorrow. Didn't have time today.

moldman05 said:
If you put it up on four jack stands and run it up to cruising speed in 4 high you will be able to determine which tire is out of balance or out of round
Click to expand...
Another good idea. I'll try that too.

Blkvoodoo said:
that there are weights 180° from one another says they didn’t remove the old weights before they tried to rebalance, and probably just tossed the wheel up in the balancer with little regard to fit up. (rework attitude)
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For what it's worth, both the weights were new ones. But they may have just been balancing on top of their original balance.
Fabrik8 said:
You may have a progressing tire wear problem, which can feel like a tire balance problem at certain speeds if you have big squirmy tread blocks. Should be a visible wear problem though, and would also likely have speed dependent noise as well.

Find a place with a Hunter 9700 balance machine, which is probably what the dealer has. It's a lot more advanced than most machines on the market for balancing algorithms and vibration, and does a nice dynamic (dual plane) balance. 9700s also do road force balancing, which can sometimes be helpful.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's tire wear issues. They look even, and are smooth and quiet from 0-60ish. Still quiet from 60 on up, and the shake dissipates once you get over 70ish. They have a Hunter 9700 but I guess that doesn't mean they know how to use it.

Fabrik8 said:
Also find a place that uses a lug flange plate, which is what you're talking about with the lug pins that press against the lug seats. Haweka makes the good ones. That type of flange plate has a lot more bearing area than the universal stuff that just presses in the area around the hub bore.
Click to expand...
I think this is one issue I'm gonna push them on. I've read many threads on the internet regarding this, so it must be true, haha.


I pulled both the 20g weights that were 180 degrees apart on the right front wheel off. Test drive revealed no noticeable change. Then pulled the heavier 50g inner weight off the left front, no change. Then when I pulled the 1 remaining 40g weight off the outside of the left front, the shake did get worse. By worse though, it was only felt in the steering wheel, not through the seat or anywhere else. I was hoping pulling all the weights off would fix it.
 
You might have uneven wear that weights won't fix. There's a tire shop around here that will shave your tires to get them back true. Had it done on a few trucks we couldn't balance the shake out of and it was amazing. It hurts to see that rubber flying off though.
 
with out reading every post.


I would bead balance and be finished. I have 4 vehicles and a motorcycle. all bead balanced but one. And soon, Ill put tires on it and bead balance. By far, the very best way to do once and be done for the life of the tire.
 
Im pretty sure i read in a toyota FSM that the only way to fix this is a 6000RPM 4Low natural drop. Supposedly you are testing the wheel centers for structural soundness.
 
Jeff B said:
with out reading every post.


I would bead balance and be finished. I have 4 vehicles and a motorcycle. all bead balanced but one. And soon, Ill put tires on it and bead balance. By far, the very best way to do once and be done for the life of the tire.
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Does bead/liquid balancing work with TPMS?

I was going to suggest that, but you have to know a starting point for the weight of medium to use.
 
jeepinmatt said:
Yes, new rotors on both sides, and torqued to 90ft-lbs instead of 384 impact feet like ToG did.
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Well, there's your problem. It's supposed to be torqued to four dugga-dugga.

Unless you have a metric impact gun. Then it's 10.16 dugga-dugga.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Does bead/liquid balancing work with TPMS?

I was going to suggest that, but you have to know a starting point for the weight of medium to use.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure about liquid but equal beads are tpms safe. I've used them on many customers trucks with huge tires and sensors. I can't speak of any other brand though that's the only brand I've used.

Sent from my HTC6545LVW using Tapatalk
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
Does bead/liquid balancing work with TPMS?

I was going to suggest that, but you have to know a starting point for the weight of medium to use.
Click to expand...
I can't see why it would be a problem. Lets say you're going to add a little antifreeze. You have to pull the valve stem to get it in there so the tire will be flattened anyway. Then you reinflate. The fluid inside the tire never changes mass (at the pressures we're talking) so the internal pressure is unaffected once it's re-filled.
For a tire this size it would only be a pretty tiny amount of fluid anyway.
 
shawn said:
Well, there's your problem. It's supposed to be torqued to four dugga-dugga.

Unless you have a metric impact gun. Then it's 10.16 dugga-dugga.
Click to expand...
I believe that converts to 3 Tacka Tacka on the Milwaukee M18 scale.
 
RatLabGuy said:
I can't see why it would be a problem. Lets say you're going to add a little antifreeze. You have to pull the valve stem to get it in there so the tire will be flattened anyway. Then you reinflate. The fluid inside the tire never changes mass (at the pressures we're talking) so the internal pressure is unaffected once it's re-filled.
For a tire this size it would only be a pretty tiny amount of fluid anyway.
Click to expand...
I was thinking more about the liquid or moving materials affecting the sensor, but it really shouldn't be that far up in the tire/wheel.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
I was thinking more about the liquid or moving materials affecting the sensor, but it really shouldn't be that far up in the tire/wheel.
Click to expand...
It's just a pressure sensor, which is pretty much just a baffle on its outside. Shouldn't matter with the kind of materials we typically use for balancing. Don't use acetone, lol.
 
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