Newly hired engineers......ugggah

[WARRIORWELDING]

Not bashing engineers in general, but I am gonna be in a predicament.
Plant hired a Continuous Improvement position and a Engineer (he is mechanical and slated as our manufacturing engineer). "We" in Maintenance all suspect he's replacing the Manager of our dept.

Neither are attempting to get to know any of the characteristics, talents, or knowledge of our group. Our group will be the foot soldiers for these new officers.
Both have been in house less than two months. Both have "ideas" and have started applying a lot of theory and avenues of improvement.
Neither can operate or understand the full scope of the production and equipment. Neither are asking much in terms of learning from anyone.
Both have been caught changing plc code and reaping havoc on the line causing "oddities" and a few flat out problems making bad product.
Our Plant Manager demands changes that we have previous discussed and explained that flat don't work. He doesn't understand the equipment either, just production numbers.
I am the only fabricator and get slated with modifications. Our machines are heavy mechanical. I also understand the characteristics of the machines very well.
Neither men are asking any questions of me. They are pushing to make things happen.
Flat refusing isn't gonna cut it. The first project was all ideas and request. No blue prints. "Make it work"!?!

What say y'all?


A good example of input....
"We need to speed up said unit. We want to load a days worth of widgets into the magazine." The magazine gets loaded with little sheet metal squares 5 to 6 Times a day. "No biggy, but we could do it once!?" Oh yes, the stack would be 6 foot tall and weight 300 lbs. Mind you we separated 1 at a time and they are maybe 20gauge thick. This is done in a sliding tray feeder, which needs regular cleaning, has a tool steel stripper that I have set tolerance to less than .015.....oh just let me undoad this few hundred pounds of steel.
The unit is also light curtain and fence protected......"so let's use a step ladder"............apparently I not supposed to say: high speed retard out loud.

I'm not overly ego driven, I want to do really good work. If that work leads to improvements I am all for it. BTW the described machine was a mess when I started. I have since rebuilt and basicly blue printed the fit and tolerances of the unit. I made specific changes to several factors to get it to jam less and run daily for weeks with minor tune ups. I know the machine. I get zero questions or input.

 

[buellconvert]

I would document all your concerns and email them to all concerned parties, if they want to leave you out of the loop then you need to CYA. You and I both know, when it ultimately fails it won't be on the engineers or managers, it'll all fall on your head! As far as wanting to use a step ladder to bypass a light curtain oh hell no I'd get your safety people on their ass and fast...

Sent from my SM-A115U using Tapatalk

 

[UTfball68]

1) I believe in continuous improvement
2) that information should come from the folks in the field/on the front lines
3) I’ve never seen a role titled as ‘continuous improvement’ worth a shit.
4) data data data...usually being the youngest guy and the newest guy in the room, there’s always a fuck ton of resistance to change. My only request is prove why it can or can’t work. Most places that can afford a dedicated CI head should have reporting capabilities to discern the corresponding KPI’s pretty easily.

 

[tlucier]

Not bashing engineers in general, but I am gonna be in a predicament.
Plant hired a Continuous Improvement position and a Engineer (he is mechanical and slated as our manufacturing engineer). "We" in Maintenance all suspect he's replacing the Manager of our dept.

Neither are attempting to get to know any of the characteristics, talents, or knowledge of our group. Our group will be the foot soldiers for these new officers.
Both have been in house less than two months. Both have "ideas" and have started applying a lot of theory and avenues of improvement.
Neither can operate or understand the full scope of the production and equipment. Neither are asking much in terms of learning from anyone.
Both have been caught changing plc code and reaping havoc on the line causing "oddities" and a few flat out problems making bad product.
Our Plant Manager demands changes that we have previous discussed and explained that flat don't work. He doesn't understand the equipment either, just production numbers.
I am the only fabricator and get slated with modifications. Our machines are heavy mechanical. I also understand the characteristics of the machines very well.
Neither men are asking any questions of me. They are pushing to make things happen.
Flat refusing isn't gonna cut it. The first project was all ideas and request. No blue prints. "Make it work"!?!

What say y'all?


A good example of input....
"We need to speed up said unit. We want to load a days worth of widgets into the magazine." The magazine gets loaded with little sheet metal squares 5 to 6 Times a day. "No biggy, but we could do it once!?" Oh yes, the stack would be 6 foot tall and weight 300 lbs. Mind you we separated 1 at a time and they are maybe 20gauge thick. This is done in a sliding tray feeder, which needs regular cleaning, has a tool steel stripper that I have set tolerance to less than .015.....oh just let me undoad this few hundred pounds of steel.
The unit is also light curtain and fence protected......"so let's use a step ladder"............apparently I not supposed to say: high speed retard out loud.

I'm not overly ego driven, I want to do really good work. If that work leads to improvements I am all for it. BTW the described machine was a mess when I started. I have since rebuilt and basicly blue printed the fit and tolerances of the unit. I made specific changes to several factors to get it to jam less and run daily for weeks with minor tune ups. I know the machine. I get zero questions or input.

Bring back memories of my first job as a degreed mechanical engineer, put into a manufacturing engineer position. My boss wanted me to retrofit an older, much larger piece of equipment to do the job that a smaller, brand new piece of equipment was doing in a faster, more efficient manner but with less throughput. He wanted all of the machine work done in house by our machine shop. I basically copied the design but made everything larger. I upsized everything to handle the additional weight and resulting forces during operation, but I overlooked something as simple as a radius in a drive shaft when the diameter changed from a smaller diameter to a larger diameter - stress concentration at a sharp corner. When the driveshaft failed, in quite a dramatic manner, I went to the machine shop manager who told me to talk to the machinist. When I talked to him and explained what happened he told me, “No shit, I could have told you it would fail because you didn’t put a radius between the transition.” When I asked him why he didn’t say anything he said, “ You gave me the prints and told me to make the shaft. You didn‘t buy me a damn cup of coffee and talk to me, ask me my opinion, or have time to review the design with me. So I made it like you designed and now here we are.” Point taken and well understood. From that day on, all of the guys in the shop got donuts, muffins, pastries and coffees on Friday on my dime. Any and all work was reviewed with the machinists over coffee and breakfast, or coffee and lunch to get their input. Nothing was built until I got their input. And there was never an issue from that point on. It was a hard learned lesson, but a valuable lesson that I never forgot.

 

[Lurch830]

I agree with @tlucier , they'll make a mistake and hopefully learn their lesson. Best case scenario is a minor mistake that doesn't cost much $$ or do any harm to anyone (maybe attempting to bypass the light curtain will be it?). I think all new engineers do it to try and prove themselves.

I did it at my old job building an IEEE/ANSI high voltage test setup. Had to have two brass electrodes with specific radiuses so the electric field wouldn't be too high and prevent corona (not the beer or pandemic). I downloaded solidworks per request so the higher ups could put the model into presentations & I had no idea what I was doing as I'm an EE. Got the electrodes spec'd, but then sandwiched them between two impossibly dimensioned clamshell Lexan pieces. Electrodes were done in house after I went over drawings with machinist. Clamshell drawings were sent down the road to Piedmont Plastics to have them built. Half an hour later PP called our machinist to ask 1) who the hell is this guy? 2) is he even allowed to make an order under our PO? 3) does he know WTF he's doing? Answers were 1) new guy 2) yes 3) apparently not. Like I said, minor thing that they caught and called us due to the machinist's relationship with PP. I learned my lesson and now try to soak everything in and talk to the 'boots on the ground' before passing anything up the chain. Once its reviewed and given their blessing/approval its up to the powers that be to figure out the budget portion before giving the green light. As said above...its amazing how helpful people will be for a $10-$20 meal and the willingness to sit down & listen (the main lesson to learn).

2nd story on 'proving yourself': They hired a ME after I was there 2-3 years and gave him the task of testing some high voltage temperature/current sensors to see how much of a heat sink they were to overhead transmission lines. He was literally asked to put together a scope, schedule & budget before testing. Dude didn't talk to anybody and just designed his test & started testing. Never told the managers 'I'm already testing' when asked for an update....just wanted to surprise them until they walked in the HV lab and we've got 4 transformers pushing out 1,800 Amps and running conductors at 200*C. His design flaw was trying to save space so he installed the sensors next to each other so it was one massive heat sink. Apparently wasted $25k for no usable data and was in hot water for quite a while.

 

[shelby27604]

I have been on both sides of your story. I have been the young, new engineer to a plant, and I have been the guy keeping junk machines alive and being told how to fix them by someone who has never seen them run. I can say that in both positions, I probably did as much to make the situation worse as I did to make it better.....UNTIL I put myself in the other guys shoes. If the engineer doesn't want to listen to you, then take the track of the machinist in @tlucier story. That guy might not know anything and be afraid to show it, let him know, that you know more than he does and that he can ask you questions, make him know when he is making a mistake and given him some credit when he makes a good decision (even if it is to decide to listen to you) and you would be surprised how quickly you can have a good ally in your corner to get some of your ideas implemented.

Or the guy might just be a know-nothing dick with a chip on his shoulder who is too dumb to bring in donuts......in which case let him dig the hole deep and wide.

 

[NCJeeplover]

Your basically describing my job to a tee. Working for the state or county is this just continually.

Neither are attempting to get to know any of the characteristics, talents, or knowledge of our group. Our group will be the foot soldiers for these new officers.

A few years ago we got a new assistant superintendent over us (my bosses boss). Every morning we all meet together to get a game plan for the day. He would walk though us during our meeting and go into our bosses office twice a week. Never stopped to introduce himself, say hello, fuck you, nothing! That's a good way to piss some guys off.

Our Plant Manager demands changes that we have previous discussed and explained that flat don't work. He doesn't understand the equipment either, just production numbers.
I am the only fabricator and get slated with modifications. Our machines are heavy mechanical. I also understand the characteristics of the machines very well.
Neither men are asking any questions of me. They are pushing to make things happen.
The first project was all ideas and request. No blue prints. "Make it work"!?!

This is my everyday. I have to do stuff that I KNOW is not going to work, just to go back 6 months later and put it the way it needs to be because someone went to a seminar and saw this "new wonderful idea". They never ask if its going to work, whats the best way to do it or anything. They just want it done. Just as @buellconvert said, I have learned the only thing you can do is make your concerns known and do what they ask. If you dwell on it too much it'll kill you. You get a little redemption when its done, but you never get to enjoy it. I just get tired of people that know nothing making decisions that I'm going to have to deal with for the next 20 years.

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

All these senerios ring a little in my ear. "KPI" that's a term slung around for sure.
Donuts and Coffee, hehehe. Bringing that to our bunch would be like offering oil to the Saudi's. We look like a junk food buffet up in our hood! Heck the good operator know where to get the good contraband.
Some of you fellas obviously work in much greater stress and more technical fields. Our equipment is old, what we need is tech and updates. The problem our new fellas are going to face and probably get tired of is the "oddities" of the in house custom designs.
Nothing we use is manufactured so to speak. The big bulk of our machines are robust shells of common equipment. The heart of them however are custom tooling, modifications, and even the logic the line uses.
Seasoned contractors have had to wrap ttheir minds around the way our stuff is wired and programmed. The reason is most was built by a common engineer, funded by a private company from the start. Everything is branded with a unique perception.
For instance we use timing contraints to make a line run. Not prox or location that says this widget made this location or this arm made this move. The logic steps based on some posistional parameters being met, but in the back ground a timer is activated and it's logic drives the overall sequence. Our new fella speed up on small location "for improvement" and the whole line cascaded out of sequence. It has caused hiccups and nuances for a week. We have been chasing said gremilin like good techs, until finally we go up the chain to get blank stairs and denial.
Another crazy quirk, we run via a signal from across the country. Not just orders or tables, the whole fricken shebang. As a plant we just have on and off switches and safety circuit so to speak. Its glorious when a machine hiccups or an operator gets a light curtain and the logic stops.

 

[Bebop]

For instance we use timing contraints to make a line run. Not prox or location that says this widget made this location or this arm made this move. The logic steps based on some posistional parameters being met, but in the back ground a timer is activated and it's logic drives the overall sequence. Our new fella speed up on small location "for improvement" and the whole line cascaded out of sequence. It has caused hiccups and nuances for a week. We have been chasing said gremilin like good techs, until finally we go up the chain to get blank stairs and denial.
Another crazy quirk, we run via a signal from across the country. Not just orders or tables, the whole fricken shebang. As a plant we just have on and off switches and safety circuit so to speak. Its glorious when a machine hiccups or an operator gets a light curtain and the logic stops.

I'm a ME so I've been looking at this thread since I can recognize myself in some situations.

But then, when I read this, I can't help but wonder... WHY ?
The logic you're describing here doesn't make any sense to me and, as you're saying, must trigger a massive size shit show every time someone makes a mistake or something unforeseen happens.

As a ME/CI person, I must say that I've been thrown in the middle of random operations with 0 training on the process/machines/past improvements with just a monthly target to meet and bosses that light a fire under your ass. Not always the easiest seat in the house.

My main gripe against operators/maintenance people is that when you show up with the goal of changing/improving a certain process, most of the time, I'm met with the following attitude : "It works now, why touch it". I'm very well aware the process works, but it could work better, so why not ?

I will say that I've had shitty engineer colleagues and dealt with shitty operators. Both situations suck. But when each side can put their thinking hats on and work hands in hands, you'd be surprised by how much good and improvement can be achieved in a process that was deemed "perfect" or "not to mess with".

My favorite way to build a relationship with the operators has always been to spend a week working on the line as one of them. And when it comes to maintenance, I've always had good luck helping them when fabricating the new parts/changes that are being implemented. Donuts and coffee are always a hit, for sure. Works in the office too.

@WARRIORWELDING : You seem to be a great guy, with experience. I'm sure the new rookie engineer wouldn't mind some input from you. Maybe if you were to go talk to him and just let him know how you feel with constructive criticism he (or she) would react positively. I've been a noob too and I'm thankful everyday that the oldest operator in the plant (76yo maintenance guy) took me under his wing and helped me understand both sides of the equation. I miss that dude.

 

[Loudmouthbass]

fresh Clemson EE showed up one day and decides my 'field to run' conduit installation note wasn't adequate. had me design complete conduit runs and ensure installation matched drawings. when project budget was >20% over for installation, EE calls me in and lights me up. i explain if you've got good electricians, field experience will always come out ahead of any design runs and showed the project costs pre-EE and post-EE. guess who's numbers were less. when i dragged up after 6 months of his EE BS, i told him i didn't understand how someone SOOOO smart would pick Clemson over NC State, VA Tech or even GA Tech and wished him all the best with his POS ag school degree....you could almost hear the gears locking up and grinding to a halt in his big ol' waterhead. one of my best days ever

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

I'm a ME so I've been looking at this thread since I can recognize myself in some situations.

But then, when I read this, I can't help but wonder... WHY ?
The logic you're describing here doesn't make any sense to me and, as you're saying, must trigger a massive size shit show every time someone makes a mistake or something unforeseen happens.

As a ME/CI person, I must say that I've been thrown in the middle of random operations with 0 training on the process/machines/past improvements with just a monthly target to meet and bosses that light a fire under your ass. Not always the easiest seat in the house.

My main gripe against operators/maintenance people is that when you show up with the goal of changing/improving a certain process, most of the time, I'm met with the following attitude : "It works now, why touch it". I'm very well aware the process works, but it could work better, so why not ?

I will say that I've had shitty engineer colleagues and dealt with shitty operators. Both situations suck. But when each side can put their thinking hats on and work hands in hands, you'd be surprised by how much good and improvement can be achieved in a process that was deemed "perfect" or "not to mess with".

My favorite way to build a relationship with the operators has always been to spend a week working on the line as one of them. And when it comes to maintenance, I've always had good luck helping them when fabricating the new parts/changes that are being implemented. Donuts and coffee are always a hit, for sure. Works in the office too.

@WARRIORWELDING : You seem to be a great guy, with experience. I'm sure the new rookie engineer wouldn't mind some input from you. Maybe if you were to go talk to him and just let him know how you feel with constructive criticism he (or she) would react positively. I've been a noob too and I'm thankful everyday that the oldest operator in the plant (76yo maintenance guy) took me under his wing and helped me understand both sides of the equation. I miss that dude.

I agree and I want to make it work, badly. I absolutely believe the best humans gravitate toward improvement. Why would anyone want to work tirelessly at doing something harder. The biggest hurdle is overcoming the stigma current with the heads of most departments. Historically the department has not been easy to deal with. I have worked hard to break this down and have earned a lot of respect. But so far we haven't been included.
The current approach is building a division and superiority issues among colleagues.

 

[obullfish]

I agree and I want to make it work, badly. I absolutely believe the best humans gravitate toward improvement. Why would anyone want to work tirelessly at doing something harder. The biggest hurdle is overcoming the stigma current with the heads of most departments. Historically the department has not been easy to deal with. I have worked hard to break this down and have earned a lot of respect. But so far we haven't been included.
The current approach is building a division and superiority issues among colleagues.

Damn I had no idea we worked together.

 

[mtnbiker4evr13]

As a Manufacturing Engineer I can see all the usual mistakes you see in a Mechanical Engineer in that role. Theres a reason why they are different degrees, worst yet is letting change driven by KPI vs. Actual production needs.

Lesson to new engineers in your first year or five: If you have an idea, run it by the old fart of the department. Chances are they've tried it 5-10 years ago and it didn't work, or thats how they used to do it before a new manager came in and wanted to change things for the sake of change.

Im pulling for ya! We're all in this together.

 

[Ron]

fresh Clemson EE showed up one day and decides my 'field to run' conduit installation note wasn't adequate. had me design complete conduit runs and ensure installation matched drawings. when project budget was >20% over for installation, EE calls me in and lights me up. i explain if you've got good electricians, field experience will always come out ahead of any design runs and showed the project costs pre-EE and post-EE. guess who's numbers were less. when i dragged up after 6 months of his EE BS, i told him i didn't understand how someone SOOOO smart would pick Clemson over NC State, VA Tech or even GA Tech and wished him all the best with his POS ag school degree....you could almost hear the gears locking up and grinding to a halt in his big ol' waterhead. one of my best days ever

Ill give ya GT without an argument...but NCSU is EE for guys Clemson and Auburn rejected.
I've hired EEs from all of them...good and bad from both.
Only head scratcher to me. I've personally hired 3 MEs from UNCC and know a few others and all are pretty good guys/girls. I know 4 UNCC EEs....and man. I'm not sure what they teach there. But..yeah I wouldn't pay for my kid to get that degree. No offense intended to. Ayone who is a UNCC EE but our company has a do not hire policy now.

 

[VortecJeep]

Ill give ya GT without an argument...but NCSU is EE for guys Clemson and Auburn rejected.
I've hired EEs from all of them...good and bad from both.
Only head scratcher to me. I've personally hired 3 MEs from UNCC and know a few others and all are pretty good guys/girls. I know 4 UNCC EEs....and man. I'm not sure what they teach there. But..yeah I wouldn't pay for my kid to get that degree. No offense intended to. Ayone who is a UNCC EE but our company has a do not hire policy now.

I got my BSEE from UNCC, graduated 20 years ago. I don’t know how it is now, but back then the EE program was heavily chips, which I had no desire to go into chips and microelectronics. But that was the background of the professors that were bringing dollars into the school. So not a lot of practical courses back then if you weren’t going into those fields. I’ve learned more on the job than ever learned in school, which should be the case anyway with any engineer, or any career for that matter.
I take no offense by it.
I do hope your company will provide UNCC feedback as to why they are on the do not hire list.

 

[Lurch830]

Same story as @VortecJeep for me & I'm not offended. Got my BSEE from UNCC 10 years ago and it was heavily focused on chips/processors at that time too. Also seemed like most engineering was focusing on the motorsports side of the ME program during its kickoff. Once I entered the real world I never built/designed any circuitry again, just inspected them before building/testing RF sensors.

 

[paradisePWoffrd]

I graduated from uncc 14yrs ago with BSME. Similar to the other guys, I actually started in EE, but quickly found out it was micro-electronics. I switched to ME at that point, as I had no interest in it. Technically finished with a motorsports concentration, but it was only 1 extra class, and haven't had anything to do with it since.

 

[jeepinmatt]

UNCC sucks! Or at least their football team did when I graduated with @paradisePWoffrd back in 2007. MechE, learned a lot, apply a lot of concepts, but rarely do any "real" engineering in the real world. Some of the best guys I've worked with were also UNCC grads. And plenty who suck too. Most of the guys I've worked with from more "prestigious" universities are too afraid to get their hands dirty and have too big of a stick up their butt about where they went to school. They usually don't last long in manufacturing or with any kind of blue collar workforce. I spent a year at NCSU before transferring to UNCC and the programs weren't that different. I just hated Raleigh and had to get out.

There have been a lot of really good points made in this thread about how the engineers should work with those who actually run and maintain the equipment so no need to add to those. On the contrary, I can't tell you how many times I've dealt with machine operators who insisted on doing things the way they are because it is easier for them, or gives them more Facebook time, or is simply just a fear of changing what they know. I'll never forget one of the (worthless, lazy) old guys at a former employer telling me "we've been doing it this way for over 30 years" and him being flabbergasted when I said "well I'm sorry to hear you've been doing it wrong for 30 years" as we proceeded to trim about 50% off a 10hr setup time and improve the stiffness and simplicity of the setup.

Point being, new engineer may have had bad experiences and is trying to feel out who he can and can't trust. Or he may be one of this shat-tastic engineers who leans on his degree as a way to lord power over people.

 

[Croatan_Kid]

Our policy at work, as machinists, is don't do it without paperwork or written permission. Don't do it if it's not written down. I'll do ANYTHING an engineer says to do IF they'll write it down. That way if it does get FUBAR'd, I just did what their instructions said to do.

That being said, I do at least work with some pretty good engineers. Sometimes they'll straight up call me and ask how we should fix something. Other times, I see where they copy/pasted from something else that's entirely wrong, has been sent to the manufacturer, approved, written up, and released. Probably 20 or 30 people looked it over and I'll be the only one to catch the mistakes. It's thankless, but I don't like doing things twice because of someone else's screw up.

I always like to ask them if they know what you call an engineer with common sense... A machinist


If I were you, I'd see if you could talk to the guy. Sometimes it only takes one good impression, show of knowledge, or helping them to make a good working relationship happen. You can probably get through to them, but it'll probably take some time.

 

[Tom@Hilltop_Machine]

I always like to ask them if they know what you call an engineer with common sense... A machinist

 

[grapehead]

I’m no engineer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night!

 

[jeepinmatt]

I’m no engineer, but I did stay at a holiday inn express last night!

The fact that they didn't even know it was a plane they built parts for says it all!

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

Our policy at work, as machinists, is don't do it without paperwork or written permission. Don't do it if it's not written down. I'll do ANYTHING an engineer says to do IF they'll write it down. That way if it does get FUBAR'd, I just did what their instructions said to do.

That being said, I do at least work with some pretty good engineers. Sometimes they'll straight up call me and ask how we should fix something. Other times, I see where they copy/pasted from something else that's entirely wrong, has been sent to the manufacturer, approved, written up, and released. Probably 20 or 30 people looked it over and I'll be the only one to catch the mistakes. It's thankless, but I don't like doing things twice because of someone else's screw up.

I always like to ask them if they know what you call an engineer with common sense... A machinist


If I were you, I'd see if you could talk to the guy. Sometimes it only takes one good impression, show of knowledge, or helping them to make a good working relationship happen. You can probably get through to them, but it'll probably take some time.

I intend to aproach him directly and open the door of professionalism between colleagues.......we will see.
His first statement was that I should be careful and remove a bearing from tooling before welding on it. Not hello, my name is Slim Shady. What are you doing? How does this run, work etcetera?

Said tool steel was 5 inches in diameter, had a chipped edge with a profile maybe 3/16 thick. The center was 3 inches thick and 3 inches in diameter.

He kept on and on about the sealed bearing. Let's see: Tool steel parent material. Roughly 2 inches of mass between the chip and bearing. Chip is maybe .75 long. Its in a low pressure application. (straightner on final pass of roll form profile)
Needs to just last til a new tool arrives.
I have limited filler selection. I Choose a stainless variant for some weld zone ductility. Lower amperage gtaw. No preheat to retain grain structure. Slight bevel, weld it was easy peasy.


"Your not gonna disassemble the fixture? But the bearing?" Blank stares.

I almost handed him the piece since 3 other people where confidently standing in the same circle waiting so the line could start back. 100 years of experience wasn't panicking comprised of a plant manager, shift lead, and a co-worker. The chipped tooling apparently put a chip on my shoulder. It hit me all wrong I guess.

 

[VortecJeep]