04 Dakota Quad Cab SAS

I just re-read and noticed you had said front waggy springs, but I think they might be shorter than I want. Thanks for the link that is a pretty big list to look through. I will try to get on the computer in the morning and do a little more looking, but I have help tomorrow so I will probably wander they junkyard until I find something that looks good.

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**Disclaimer: I am only trying to help you here***
I will also preface this, by saying I know very little abt dak's

BUT I cant imagine them being much heavier over the front than a waggy or some other similarly sized v8 powered midsize.

If it were me I would step back and rethink the whole front setup. I know your on a time frame but these are not easy vehicles to modify correctly. Trying to knock out an SAS on a toyota in a week might be a different thing.

IMO a 56" is way too long for any front leaf unless its some crazy trail only rig. Folks run 52" chevy rears up front on the 73-87's with pretty good success, but they are super soft in that application. I would take sqrl$$'s advise and maybe try the waggy fronts, be sure to get the 7 leaf version. I might would try the Toyota rears, but if you follow my suggestion, the mil-wrap would be at the wrong end.

I would run shackles forward in this application. It will allow you to slide the hard mount up the frame rail and use the shackle in the front to bring the spring eye down to match the rear eye, so that the spring sits level. You can also build the caster you need into the length of the shackle hanger and shackle length. The other advantage I see to this setup is it will allow you lower the ride height significantly, and keep the spring mounts from being the lowest point on the frame. It also will allow you to push the axle forward a little more. I wouldn't be too concerned about trying to keep it centered in the wheel-well. Don't be afraid to push that bad boy out there some, maybe as much as 4" from the original location. The Dodge body lines lend themselves to a clean cut under the headlights going straight out. You could clearance the bumper corners in a clean way easy. I think you mentioned running a waggy pitman arm? Aren't those forward swing and pretty long? is so that would be perfect for moving the axle out more, even if you had to slide the box forward some. But I doubt you'd have to. I'd seriously consider this type of setup, I think it'd be cleaner and safer. Try to stay somewhere in between 52-46" on front spring length and I'd say under 50" for this application. That will cut down on body roll, axle wrap, and other bad things. Especially since you're driving it everyday.

Here is a bad paint drawing of what I'm talking about:

ai1083.photobucket.com_albums_j395_ncgamedog_dak2_1.jpg
 
RiverRat88 said:
Well I came home with 4 door explorer springs 57" with 26/31 offset this will move the axle back 2" which is stock location and will hopefully fix the spring problem.

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Click to expand...

Man I posted too late I guess, But those are gonna be too long and way too soft...good luck though. Think about what I posted :beer:
 
Ncgamedog- no need to worry about the disclaimer, the lack of sleep was getting to me, I just wasn't sure if you meant the brackets, welds, spring angle or shape. I will see how the new leaves work, and probably switch to shorter springs in the future.

I actually meant to post that part hours ago.

The new springs are in and almost flat but no funny shape, the height has gone up though, I also have extended my deadline to Saturday or possibly Sunday.
 
The spring issue is fixed they are still long but at least they are more normally curved now. I reassembled the axle and started working on the steering box brace. I also found out the taper on my crossover steering arm is a lot smaller than the TRE, I thought jeep and ford used the taper, but I guess I will be reaming that out. Thats all for today, maybe I will get a little more done in the morning.

Comparing old and new leaves, the explorer in the front and durango in the rear. You can see the difference in eye heights and what appears to have caused my issues.


New leaves mounted and sitting at ride height which looks to be another 3" taller. I will also probably move the spring up one hole in the shackle.


Axle reassembled and hopefully on for the last time.


Pitman arms - from left stock durango, waggy drop, stock waggy, I ended up using the drop waggy arm


The start to my steering box bracket


Thanks for all the help and suggestions with my problem with the leaf springs, hopefully this new set-up will work, if not, I will definitely be following the advice I have gotten.
 
No pics right now but the front is finished. The drag link is touching the tire so I need to get a wheel spacer, I think 1/2" will do. Also I don't have a socket thin enough for the lugs so I am going to get splined lug nuts too. I am doing the shackle flip right now and will swap in the 60 later. I managed to keep the car for another day and have orientation tomorrow and its my anniversary so I may be sending my brother by 4wp and hope they have them in stock.

I did drive it around the yard and aside from the somewhat loose wheels it seemed fine, I did damage the r/f tire from the drag link but these are only meant to last about 2 weeks until I get a set of 37" hummer rt2 take offs. The front springs are soft but after I add shocks I think it might be ok.

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I had a metallic noise and ended up having the caliper support spring and key fall out. It looks like when the po ground them for 15s they weren't a tight enough fit, I got new hardware and calipers are secure now.

The explorer leaves are way too soft and slightly inverted. The second leaf is digging into the main leaf and makes horrible noise. I am going to put in new leaves Monday. I have narrowed it down to 2 options, xj rears or Chevy 52s. I like that xj springs will move the axle forward but I am worried they will be too soft. The 52s have a higher load rating but aren't as easy to find and keeps the axle in the same location. Any input would be appreciated and if anyone has set near Raleigh that would be even better.

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XJ rears are really soft like the explorer springs. I know you are wanting to keep a long spring, but I would look into the Waggy 7 leaf front springs. They were used to supporting the weight of a 360, flex good and have the offset center pin. They are shorter, but would probably work good for you. Chevy springs are easy to find and lots of Yota guys run them so they would probably do the trick as well.
 
If it were me and I was taking on this project I would go with Waggy front springs and change your shackle configuration around to something more like this.......
shackles 2.jpg

shackle.jpg

You'll be able to get a better pinion/caster angle and you'll get away fron the drawbacks of running a rear spring in the front. If you'll notice most factory rear leaf springs have a fairly long main leaf and progressively shorter leaves under that, The issue is that the leaf under the main leaf is a lot shorter than the main compared to how a front leaf pack would be.
 
RiverRat88 said:
Thanks for all the help and suggestions with my problem with the leaf springs, hopefully this new set-up will work, if not, I will definitely be following the advice I have gotten.
Click to expand...

RiverRat88 said:
The explorer leaves are way too soft and slightly inverted. The second leaf is digging into the main leaf and makes horrible noise. I am going to put in new leaves Monday. I have narrowed it down to 2 options, xj rears or Chevy 52s. I like that xj springs will move the axle forward but I am worried they will be too soft. The 52s have a higher load rating but aren't as easy to find and keeps the axle in the same location. Any input would be appreciated and if anyone has set near Raleigh that would be even better.

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Click to expand...


^ Well this is a bit contradictory...

When I mentioned the 52"s that was a general example, if you go back and look, I said I'd keep the length under (less than) 50". For the intended use of this particular vehicle you need to run something shorter. I'm not sure what you're thinking that long ass spring is going to do for you other than make your truck a hot ass mess. If you don't believe me, then for pete's sake, at least believe Chris (MarsFab). He does build rigs for a living.

I like his idea of running the shackles through the frame, like a toyota. In order to do that, it may get a bit tricky with having room to get the bushing sleeves in there square. I looks like you would have to contend with your exhaust, and some funky frame angles. I also dont know how it would work out width wise, because you would have to be sure the centerline of the shackle is in line with the spring perches and the front mounts. How you already have them inboarded, lends me to think it may not work out. You would have to either put a pretty serious dogleg in the outside plate, or come up with some kind of spacer to take up the offset between two straight plates. If it will work, that is overall, the best method for a street driven rig. BUT, to get all that right will take some patience, lots of measuring, and time.

The method I proposed (shackles in the front) may be easier for you to pull off. PLUS it will coincide with you using the waggy springs. If the springs you use have a mil-wrap it needs to be at the hard mount end. I'm not sure if the waggys are mil-wrap springs (i dont think so), but if they are you would need the shackles to be forward to prevent bending the main leaf. The inverse of this is true as well. Toyota and Chevy rears are set up for shackles in the rear.

The chevy 52's are way easy to find as they came on every 1/2 ton from 1970-1987. They will be too long, and give you a lot of lift. It nets 4" on a chevy fullsize so...

The biggest issue with keeping the shackles like you have them is caster and pinion angles. You're going to need some ridiculous shims to get it turned back down or figure out some way to reshape the cast spring perch and cut-&-turn the other. May even need to turn the knuckles.


Not trying to be all doom and gloom, I'm pullin for ya, but I would try to slow down and think it through a little better.

Got any updated pics of the suspension at current?
 
I do have some more pics and hopefully will have them updated tonight. It seems as though the waggy fronts are the best choice, I think there is only one at the local junkyard so hopefully it has the 7 leaf version. I will look into their length so I know how far to move the shackle mount forward. Based on everything I had read a shackle rear setup made for a better ride. Also currently the caster is at 7 degrees and I hope to lower it to around 5 degrees. I had mainly wanted to use the 52s so I could keep my rear mount and just swap springs and shackles.

I really appreciate all the quick replies.

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ncgamedog- you are right and that was a bit contradictory, I had remembered xj springs being mentioned and when I glanced back over your post and saw people running the 52s with success I took that as being a good option. I do also plan to keep the shackle in the rear which is against your advice but with the front mount already made I hope will be worthwhile.

MarsFab and ncgamedog- I wanted to put the shackle mount through the frame but due to frame width I was not able to, if possible when I move the mount forward I will do this but it doesn't look promising.

Before getting to the last weeks worth of pictures I was wondering, It looks like a 7 leaf wagoneer spring is the best option but If I can only find the 5 leaf version is that too soft or should I get a different set of springs? If I do have to get different springs it sounds like they should be off the front of a v8 truck, is this correct? Or in that case would the 52s be acceptable, I will follow whichever hierarchy is suggested but I have no money for new springs so I do need a fallback plan.


---------pics------------

Friday

mounted steering box, still need to add bracing but I'm not sure where to get tube to sleeve 7/16" bolts


steering box mounted


motor mount in the way


turns out I measured the outside diameter wrong so started shaving the drag link down



-------Saturday--------------
working on drag link



drag link shortened, steering shaft lengthened and end changed


At some point I went to walmart and got a dremel to clearance the motor mount but it didn't come with a collet nut and I didn't want to go back. All the shiny shavings are from the aluminum motor mount.


finally got enough clearance and then quit for the night


-------Sunday--------------
Reaming knuckle for drag link


when I thought it was finished


Drag link touching tire


Regular lug nuts


At some point between the steering pictures and here I bent the brake lines found out that the factory 10mm lines and brake caliper 3/8" banjo bolts are close enough and so far it is leak free. I also routed the power steering lines, the fittings are the same but my lines currently make a big U.

Sitting a little leaned back


Starting rear shackle flip


shackle flip finished


closer to level, about 1.5" lower in the rear


current terrible pinion angle


driving it onto something in the yard just to see



Edit: The front shocks I bought were for a K5 blazer, the parts guy said they were for a factory dual shock setup, are there any better options for a front shock off a stock vehicle?
 
OK...let's see...

1) If all you can get are the 5 leaf springs, I would still use them as long as they are the same length as the 7 leaf versions. A quick online search should net you that info before you hit the yard. Try them as is and if its a bit flat or too soft, you can always add a couple leaves in from a similar pack. you might have to cut the other leaves down so they stack in right with the waggy pack. How much is the JY charging you for a set of springs? I would think after 3 sets, you'd be getting pretty close to a new set of stock waggys from JC Whitney or somewhere.

2) The 52's are prob just not gonna work for ya. They are wider than the waggys, ~2.75"/ 3" with bushings. You might could make them work, but you'd still need to push the front mount forward. And like I said before, its gonna net you a ton of lift.

3) I know you dont want to cut that front crossmember/spring mount back out, and trust me I hate doing re-work as much as anyone. But here's the thing. In order to move the shackle mount up the frame far enough so that you get the spring level and have a decent shackle angle, you're going to end up hitting the frame when the shackle travels back under compression. Unless the shackles have room to swing completely inside the frame rails. Its totally up to you though. I'm certainly not the end all authority on suspension fabrication.

4) As for your steering, I think that rod end should seat deeper in the steering arm. You are also gonna need some wheel spacers or different wheels...obviously.

5) On the shocks, just wait until you get the rest right. Then cycle the suspension and measure the extended and compressed length you need. Cheap white body 1000 shocks can be had easily. Check w 4wp there in Raleigh or Galloway's is real reasonable on shocks and they have them in stock and can make them up any way you want.

6) those rear lowering shackles are dangerous! they might hold up for road driving, but if you get out there twisting that thing up with a heavy full floating rear axle, they will fold over fast. ORD makes a real shackle in that fashion. I know you're just wanting to get it going so that can be fixed later, but just beware.

7) are you cleaning the paint off the frame before doing all this welding?? Im no welder, but Ive always thought paint in welds gave you a lot of porosity and impeded penetration.


Its a nice looking truck with a lot of potential, good luck getting it back together. Take the time to do it right, and all your hard work will pay off. :beer:
 
I think from what you were saying that you are sleeving between the holes going from frame to the ps box mount correct?
I told you the motor mounts would be in the way, they are huge.
I agree with the other guys that I think you would be better off putting the shackles in the front, but if you are gonna keep them in the back I would def do the waggy springs and a shorter shackle. That will help you pinion angle some, and the shorter spring will do better for streetability.
2319721940106821841S500x500Q85.jpg

I would also beef up those rear shackle hangers. I cannot tell good from the pics but it looks like you just cut and reused the factory hangers and put some Durango shackles on it.
2806722770106821841S500x500Q85.jpg

I would suggest using/making a dropped hanger similar to what I put on mine. It is really beefy, bolts/welds to frame and has bushings built in and drops the shackles down which would help you out with the sag you have in the rear. These came from DIY4x4 and were originally for a Ramcharger, but fit the bolt holes and spacing for Dakota.
ai239.photobucket.com_albums_ff33_sqrlmoney_Fab_20work_Dakota_20SAS_2010_10_21_17_03_51_139.jpg

ai239.photobucket.com_albums_ff33_sqrlmoney_Fab_20work_Dakota_20SAS_2010_10_21_17_04_05_739.jpg

You can correct that pinion angle with degree blocks instead of a straight block.
2337245890106821841S500x500Q85.jpg
 
Ok, so I have a few responses to your points and I think I atleast managed to get the major ones, and some were similar and might have gotten put into on response. It is also nice to get such detailed responses from people with much more experience than I have, which is practically none.

ncgamedog-
1-I will get whatever waggy springs I can find 5 or 7 leaf, I have spent under $100 total so far on springs and the cheapest I could find new ones online for was $150 each

4-I think it is the lack of boots that make all the rod ends look like they are sticking too far out, but I plan to get the hd tie rod kit from ECGS and figured since I have no reamer that I would just pay them to install it, so if it is an issue it will be fixed at that point.
-I do currently have a slide on wheel spacer on that side and the tire is no longer touching but I plan to get wheels friday and end up with less backspacing to get rid of the slide on spacers.

5-I will find some shocks after the front is fixed

6-I will keep the shackle in mind before I actually use the truck but if they will be fine for the road then that is good enough until the more pressing issues are resolved.

7-I am cleaning all the paint off about 1/2" back from the welds, I think the welds look funny because it is flux core but I am not much of a welder myself either so I'm not sure.

sqrl$$-

-I do mean sleeves running through holes in the frame to the holes in the mount so that the bolts can be supported the whole way.

-I think I am going to keep the shackles in the rear, it looks like the front waggy springs are 47" which moves the back of the spring at the back of the frame arch when flat. This should allow me to move the shackle hanger up the arch slightly and use a shorter shackle in order to lower the front end about 3" which would move the rear of the spring to just below the frame.
-This will also get rid of my excessive droop in the front when I lifted it at work the front drooped 14" before the brakelines started to get taught. And the pinion angle did get pretty bad at that point as well.

-The rear shackle hangers are just 2wd hangers, the bolt holes didn't line up so I just welded them on

-When I change to a stronger shackle in the rear I am going to use a setup like yours where I can also use shackle plates.

-That is still the factory 9.25 in the rear, when I swap in the 60 I will setup the pinion angle before welding the perches on, I also hope to remove any kind of block from the rear straight or tapered.
 
I just got back from the junkyard with my waggy fronts, it had a 360 but it only had 6 leaves and I only saw listings for 5 and 7 leaf versions. But the truck looked stock and I will see how they work tomorrow, now to just find some spring pads to replace these.

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Another update with no pics, I had taken it to work last week and yesterday I changed to waggy fronts and mounted all four shocks. I drove home last night on backroads and kept it below 55, today I drove it to and from work on the highway at about 70.

When I changed springs it moved my axle forward 2" to where I originally wanted it, but now the drag link is too long. At the steering wheel I have one turn left and two turns right, excluding that the steering still feels weird, the box is slow and doesn't have enough throw, I don't think I am making it to the axle stops even on right turns as is. Aside from that the truck now rides smoother and stops just fine. The gas mileage has gone up but that is with the rear unchanged so basically free-spin hubs has been the only thing to cause the difference. It is also taking some getting used to to know where exactly in the lane I am and steering. Actually being able to drive it and not feel like it was coming apart like with the explorer springs and no shocks has remotivated me since all the issues were making me start to regret the project.

I got the tube to sleeve the power steering box mounts but can't find long enough bolts to make it through the frame, I need 7/16-14x9" and closest I can find is 6". I am going to finish up the rear axle and probably swap it in next week after I pick up tires this weekend, I would hate to hit a problem and have nothing to get the tires with. I still need to figure out the driveshaft but that is pretty low on the list right now.
 
I just realized there were no new pics since the waggy leaves. I have since centered the steering and I guess that was about it. Yesterday morning I finished up the rear axle and installed it. I ended up shaving the top of the housing 1/8" for the speed sensor, I was able to get it within .002" of where it needed to be with a grinder which surprised me. I routed all the brake lines, set the pinion angle and put in a new u-joint. I used the ruffstuff simple swap kit and moved the axle back 1" to recenter it. I had to reuse the blocks for now and I really don't like the way they sit with the spring center and axle center not matching but I will get different springs to fix that soon. Tomorrow I will probably swap the shorter shackles in the front which will lower it about 3/4" and then if I move the front spring mount up 2" it will sit level and not have huge brackets hanging down in the front. When I checked for noise with the truck in the air I had a horrible grinding noise at speeds above 65, it turns out I have had a bent driveshaft for a while but with 3.55 gears I never went fast enough to notice. I checked on retubing the shaft and the estimate was $200-250 and I was able to get a used one for less than $150, the junkyard will be delivering it Monday or Tuesday. After that I just need to reinforce the frame, brace the steering box, get ecgs to ream my steering for 1 ton tres and I would like to get a longer pitman or move the drag link mounting location further back on the knuckle to help my turning radius, get a new front output to use a u-joint, and a double cardan driveshaft.

Attached are a few pics, I couldn't figure out how to insert them in the text. The are a side shot, the rear installed, and the crease in the driveshaft.
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Yep, they showed up. Looks pretty good.
 
Decent quality pics :bounce2:

Today I changed from 5.5" shackles in the front to 4" shackles, the truck is level within a 1/4" but the shackle angle is a little much so I need to find a happy medium

more level


shackle angle


rear end, should I worry about anything catching on the hard brakelines with the way they are sitting above the axle, I cut them a little long and didn't feel like flaring them again.


waggy springs
 
you may wanna look into getting a set of new replacement waggys for the front, looks like they are in negative arch pretty bad in those pics
 
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