Cummins clutch advice

shawn

shawn

running dog lackey of the oppressor class
Administrator
Joined
Mar 13, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
Same question as I asked on FB:

Alright peeps... Dodge clutch gave up the ghost after 156k.

South Bend says that I "need" a SBC DD Street.

I say the stock Luk lasted 156k.

What say you?

Truck is stock-ish... Smart SR on 5 or 7. I've got more power than I can use with the trailer hooked up. Have to drive it by the EGT, even with all 4" pipe.

I can say from experience that I could sidestep the pedal in 6th with 150k on the factory clutch, and that was not the weak link.. I can't say if that is typical or not.

The biggest appeal in a "better-than-stock" single disc organic is probably in the HD hub springs... but you don't get much of a bump in single disc before engagement gets to be an issue. I end up doing a LOT of slipping when moving the trailer around at slow speeds.

This truck will never make more than about 500hp at the crank. Not so long as I own it, anyway. But it's probably.... F.... around 400 at the rear tires when it's turned up... 325 "normally"?
 
Oh, and there's no telling who will drive this thing, or when. Should have seen the kid at the Autobell trying to back it up a wet hill in 2wd with it taching 1500. It nearly got interesting.
 
From my bad experiences elsewhere and many friends that went with southbend, get a sb. Their customer service can't be beat. They even helped me out on an issue I had knowing I didn't own their clutch. With that said I'm not sure why they push the DD. I have a friend with an 01 dually, 6spd, 4x4 and he got that clutch but thinks he didn't need the DD. And as far as backing, if you can put the 2Low mod on yours I would, I really wish I could:(
 
I made over 550 on a single disc and never had any serious issues with it towing. That was back in the ofe/fe days.
We've got double disc in quite a few trucks that tow heavy and take a fair amount of abuse with no issue. I tend to follow Peters advice when it comes to clutches and he's not steered me wrong yet. I think Olee said he had a used clutch you could check on that too.
Single disc would work but the dual disc will be more reliable and take a bit more abuse.

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GONOVRIT said:
And as far as backing, if you can put the 2Low mod on yours I would, I really wish I could:(
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Can't do it on the 03+ without replacing the hubs. That's a nice upgrade for a bunch of reasons, but it was always too pricey for me. I bought a pair of OEM Timken unit bearings instead.
 
I was very happy with the SouthBend in my F250 and everyone I know that installed one in their Cummins shared the same sentiment. Probably about 65-70k on the one in my old truck and it got the damnit kicked out of it whenever I was towing, daily driven around Boone like a jackass and its being used as a work truck now hauling trailers all the time.
 
You won't be sorry if you get a dual disc. You're already over half the price if you get a single disc. It's just one less thing to worry about. I'm on my second single disc and wish I had just gotten a dual disc to start with. I have a different setup since it's a Cummins in a Chevy, but it's still the same idea. I use a 2nd Gen clutch, flywheel, and bellhousing with a Dodge input in a late model Chevy NV4500. If you do get a dual, just get the organic facings. Anything else will probably be too grabby or have a pressure plate that's stiffer than your knee will appreciate.
 
A $350 single disc will not hold it through break in. I know I know, it was in it from the factory. Trust me, this is all ive done for almost 10 years, a $350 single disc will not hold it. Seen atleast 30 people try and fail.

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mysterync said:
A $350 single disc will not hold it through break in. I know I know, it was in it from the factory. Trust me, this is all ive done for almost 10 years, a $350 single disc will not hold it. Seen atleast 30 people try and fail.

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How do you figure? Valair's "better than stock" towing clutch is $365.

South Bend is a bit pricier at around $485, but their dual disc "street" clutch is $1300.

An OEM Luk is $225. Only downside to those is the hub springs don't look to be as HD as Valair or South Bend.

I figure I got 156k out of the stocker, at least 35-40k towing pretty heavy once or twice a month, and a good 60k with the motor turned up some. And the clutch would still be in the truck right now if the pilot bearing hadn't come apart.

The thing that gets me about all the reviews is the people saying stuff like "it's not much noisier than stock" or it "shifts almost as fast as stock" or "it's a little harder to get in gear than stock", or "it's kind of hard to back up with a trailer attached", or "it's kinda jumpy when empty". In other words, it's a huge pain in the ass to drive, and you can't really just hand the keys off to the guy at Autobell without worrying about what is going to happen.
 
We've got trucks you can drive with the sb street dd. The valair is basically a stock clutch and it will come back out (dont get me wrong, I like the guy but dont care much for his products) the luk "upgrade" I put in my truck and it lasted less than 500 miles (yes I'm probably rougher on one than most).
Couldn't tell you why the "factory upgraded replacement" wont hold up but they just dont unless your using it in a factory application.

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mysterync said:
We've got trucks you can drive with the sb street dd. The valair is basically a stock clutch and it will come back out (dont get me wrong, I like the guy but dont care much for his products) the luk "upgrade" I put in my truck and it lasted less than 500 miles (yes I'm probably rougher on one than most).
Couldn't tell you why the "factory upgraded replacement" wont hold up but they just dont unless your using it in a factory application.
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Yeah, but what's a factory application? This is basically a stock truck. No injectors, no turbo, no... nothing. Just a couple of gauges and a programmer.

Don't get me wrong -- I recognize the shortcomings of the factory piece. The hub springs were loose in the one that came out. I just want to understand why you think that if we put the same thing back in its place... or put something that's been beefed up a bit with maybe better linings and better/more hub springs, etc, that it's going to cook itself in a few months.

I mean, if it's just a question of break-in, I'll turn the motor down for a while, give the clutch a chance to bed in.

The way I'm thinking right now, I won't own this truck a year from now. Or if I do, it won't be doing the same job that it's doing today. It'll be back to doing chores and maybe sometimes pulling a trailer. I'm just trying to get my head around why I should spend an extra $1k on a premium, fancy, it-can-take-600hp-while-grossing-30k clutch.
 
Call me at the shop when you get a minute and ill go over my reasoning. To much to type. 828-266-9077

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mysterync said:
Call me at the shop when you get a minute and ill go over my reasoning. To much to type. 828-266-9077
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Ugh... I'm typing b/c I can sit on a conference call and do it at the same time. :flipoff2:
 
shawn said:
Ugh... I'm typing b/c I can sit on a conference call and do it at the same time. :flipoff2:
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I'll post in a few if i get time. You know for some reason I've had a constant stream of powerstroke owners calling asking why their trucks wont start, as soon as it eases up I should have a few minutes to explain.
With that explanation you probably could make it with a cheap clutch fine but they will not handle added power regardless of their claims. From my experience they have hub failures. I'm not sure why, Peter would probably have a better explanation. Even at low power levels they seem to grenade. It may have been abuse related but if you can't drive the truck hard without experiencing a failure I dont consider that a quality product. In bone stock trucks they do fine. Add 50 hp and they either bust the hub splines or completely grenade the hub.

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shawn said:
How do you figure? Valair's "better than stock" towing clutch is $365.
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I'll be honest and say I didn't break that clutch in as I should have but it didn't even make it halfway through an oil change before I was pulling it out. I felt completely stupid for even trying it.
 
ok, here it goes. the truck is in my shop so i will go with what i know.
he didn't have clutch failure, he had pilot bearing/input shaft failure.(don't know which happened first)
his stock clutch looked ok (worn out, but no excessive heat indicators) clutch hub springs were loose but i associated that with some clutch dumping (which shawn admitted too):shaking:
of course a $1300 southbend dual disc is going to be the most durable of his choices but is the added expense going to be his best choice for a truck that he wants to keep the driving characteristics as close to stock as possible?
i will only warranty the stock clutch replacement(luk), if a customer wants any other clutch setup i ask them to buy it themselves, and i will gladly install it. he will also have to be paying for transmission repair, so he is looking at more than just the cost of replacing his clutch. (sorry shawn,i'm not trying to scare you)
 
Seen this similar thing happen to a buddy once. Tried to replace with a "heavy duty" stock clutch or something of the like. Took the smarty box off and drove it for 1 week and it was already acting up. Went ahead and got the south bend single disc and never looked back.

With your intentions of the truck and possibly selling it in the future, I would go with the single disc South Bend. Be a good selling point if you get rid of it, not as pricey as the dual disc and you won't have to worry about the problems mentioned here.

Just my opinion, but it's pretty worthless being I am yet to own my own diesel... Lol


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transman731 said:
ok, here it goes. the truck is in my shop so i will go with what i know.
he didn't have clutch failure, he had pilot bearing/input shaft failure.(don't know which happened first)
his stock clutch looked ok (worn out, but no excessive heat indicators) clutch hub springs were loose but i associated that with some clutch dumping (which shawn admitted too):shaking:
of course a $1300 southbend dual disc is going to be the most durable of his choices but is the added expense going to be his best choice for a truck that he wants to keep the driving characteristics as close to stock as possible?
i will only warranty the stock clutch replacement(luk), if a customer wants any other clutch setup i ask them to buy it themselves, and i will gladly install it. he will also have to be paying for transmission repair, so he is looking at more than just the cost of replacing his clutch. (sorry shawn,i'm not trying to scare you)
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If he's not planning on keeping it as long as he stays away from the "upgraded factory part" he'll be fine. He'd be better going stock mopar parts than one of those.

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If it were me I'd go back with what came in it. No reason to spend a 1000 bucks on a fancy clutch when the stocker lasted as long as it did in the manner you used it. Plus if Lee warranty's the factory clutch that's a big pro to going with it.
 
I want to know what a clutch would cost from the dealer. Never know what to expect there.
 
my dual mass stock flywheel let go around 60k and i replaced it with a dual disc organic valair clutch and billet solid flywheel. great clutch great service nice smooth engagement good pedal feel. i haul heavy alot and my truck is stock. backing up in my dirt yard with a 20k poubd load was doable in 2wd. mine is a 2005 g56
.
 
@shawn I guess you're not buying a 13" upgrade with a flywheel, like I was. The last one I bought was 700 bucks. I just looked it up and the same one I bought is now 871 bucks. I didn't have a flywheel to use when I put it all together, so that's what I decided to go with. A Kevlar/Ceramic clutch, with no flywheel, for a newer truck is 756 bucks. These are Valair prices.

That being said....if I was to replace it again, I would be well over half the cost of a dual disc which are 1100-1300 depending on who you buy from. I'm not very hard on my truck, but I damn sure hated pulling an NV4500/NP205 combo to replace a clutch that I knew I shouldn't have run to start with. Also, not sure if you're familiar with dual discs or not, but they DO rattle quite a bit (they may have lessened it in recent years) when you press the clutch. Obviously, there are two discs and a floater plate in there, so some noise is to be expected.

An upgraded single disc should do you just fine. I would definitely do something better than a stock replacement. Not sure what kind of boost you're making, but when you lay in to it, or even just towing, it's asking a LOT out of a clutch. The low RPM combined with the high torque levels has a tendency to tear things apart. The pressure plate has to have enough clamping force to hold and the friction material has to provide enough grip for everything to stay locked together. The first clutch I had would slip unloaded. Granted, I make 56 lbs of boost and that means a lot of torque, but you're probably making just as much power or more than I am. I've only got a First Gen motor in my rig and those common rails are a completely different animal.

Like I said, the biggest difference is in the pressure plate clamping force and the friction material/materials of the clutch disc.


I've seen some of the monstrosities that @Clubbs has hauled. He's hell on that poor truck!


Those are my experiences. Results may vary! (BTW, I've also smoked two stock clutches in my Silverado before I ponied up for a Spec Stage II, I'm a little harder on that truck :D )
 
Croatan_Kid said:
Granted, I make 56 lbs of boost and that means a lot of torque, but you're probably making just as much power or more than I am.
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Oh, heck no. The stock charger is only good for about 30psi under the best of circumstances. High 20s is much more typical.

At the end of the day, I'm probably only making as much power as the later model trucks. The new stuff puts over 300hp at the tires in stock trim.
 
So, next question: anybody around here deal in South Bend parts?
 
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