Difficulty of Daniel

[DRaider90]

This is a very touchy subject with some, but I wanted to get opinions on this. Because its a highly discussed topic in at least the groups I wheel with, and wanted to see what everyone else thought. In the interest of a couple different people I will keep my opinions to a minimum, and stay focused on the common knowledge facts.

Things to consider:

1.)Daniel has been considered the "Extremely Difficult" trail for a long period of time. And therefore has a reputation of being the most Difficult trail out at Uwharrie.

2.)"The Ledge" or "2nd Ledge" as its more recently been called didn't always exist. Only after a couple hurricanes and rain storms caused flash flooding/erosion did it "appear". The ledge has only been around for 7 or 8 years if I am not mistaken.

3.)Maintenance on Daniel is primarily done by the Forest Service bulldozer. And its common knowledge in the past "the ledge" has been filled in to allow the Dozer access to the rest of the trail. This is a yearly deal, and most years erosion returns the ledge to its original state by mid season. This year its still pretty much filled in.

4.)At one point the main obstacle on Daniel was the "3 Path Hill Climb" or "Peak Climb" as its now called. The switch backs were the only other challenge.

5.)What used to be the bypass on the "Peak Climb" which is the line all the way to the left was blocked off for half a season to increase the difficulty of the "Peak Climb". Now its not really a bypass, but a more moderate line to take.

5.)"Rut Hill" that is right before the "First Ledge" was only a minor obstacle that had any difficulty to it later in the year. Usually it was filled in completely and wasn't an obstacle. This year it barely filled in at all.

6.)The "First Ledge" wasn't an obstacle until around late 2007. With the "2nd Ledge" having been filled in, its now the main obstacle.

Now most people that have done Daniel will tell you that the only reason Daniel is considered "Most Difficult" is because of the Ledges (or what is now only the 1st Ledge). Otherwise it is a fairly moderate-difficult trail.

Some will say what does this have to do with the volunteer work etc? Well in the upcoming years there will be a lot of changes to the trail system. If anyone reads the "Trail Report" thread I have posted, it is pretty obvious. Many people associate trail repairs/changes with dubbing down the difficulty, which is true is some cases.

Our opinion on the trail system is KEY to the future projects/conditions. A large majority of what is done on Daniel is in response to happenings/opinions expressed by the riders. The other portion is effected by erosion/hydrology issues, archeological sites, endangered species, and safety issues. What would you like to see the future of the Daniel trail hold? Would bypasses be a good idea (something the FS is/has considered)? Would more obstacles be an improvement to increase the difficulty? Share your thoughts on the subject.

 

[GONOVRIT]

I would like to see more trails at URE with difficult obstacles. A good driver would have no problem running the entire trail system in a stock jeep. I know of many people that don't or won't go there due to lack of obstacles including myself. I live about 2hrs away and haven't been there in about 6yrs. I'm 2.5hrs away from Mountain City, TN and often frequent there twice a month.

Bypasses aren't the answer for tough trails. If its rated black and you have a stock vehicle, don't go there. Bypasses often become harder than the actual trail quite quickly due to not knowing whats under the top layer. My .02

 

[drkelly]

I think Daniel should be left alone so it becomes more difficult over time. I think Uwharrie needs more 'Difficult' rated trails. I believe the UNF has the varying topography for them.

Bypasses can be a touchy subject. I personally have no problem with bypasses. I think they help ease the extraction of broken rigs if nothing else. I think the bypasses on Rocky Mountain Loop trail have proven to be a great addition. No longer do we have dirt bikes and fourwheelers getting pissed off at the four wheeling crowd for blocking the trail at the Kodak area.

 

[jeepinmatt]

I think Daniel is fine the way it is. Maybe allow the second ledge to erode some.

I almost voted for not difficult enough, BUT, I don't think Daniel is the best spot for a more constantly difficult trail. In my opinion, coupling a difficult trail with a long, steep hillclimb would be a recipe for traffic jams and rollovers.

 

[GubNi]

The biggest problem I see is that it needs more shade on the gravel roads to keep the dust down or maybe trails through the woods so the gravel roads are optional. Definately needs more hardcore trails. I went and did everything in 2wd in a Bronco with 38" boggers and a locker a few years ago. I did put in in 4wd twice for a short climb, but in general it was boring and the dust was crazy.

 

[REDLYNER]

We did Daniel on Monday and once we got to the "hill climb" I was like... wait... where did the second ledge go?

It would be cool to have some more to play on besides Kodak Rock.

 

[Dylan W.]

URE needs a real Hardcore trail. One for the big bad rigs..that and a large rock garden near one of the parking lots(double parking?)

The ok for a rock garden was given in the past, but the work was never followed up on.

I personally think that the Daniel side of the double parking lot would be a great place for an awsome rock garden, and that the Daniel trail is fine the way it is.
But somewhere in UNF there needs to be a very difficult trail that only the most capable of rigs can traverse. With built in bypasses of course, so everyone can say they have driven trail ''x''.

 

[jeepinmatt]

With built in bypasses of course, so everyone can say they have driven trail ''x''.

No way! Make the first and last obstacles the hardest, so that you don't underbuilt rigs getting stuck or broke halfway in.

Also, having a really hard trail at Uwharrie would give people something to work up to.

 

[ghost]

Not only does it need to be more difficult IMHO it needs to be looped back into the system. Daniel being the only trail on that side of the road makes it a one way trail IMHO. Either you go up Daniel and move the tow rig or you go up Daniel run URE and then back down Daniel. I would love to see another trial that hooks the bottom of Daniel back into the system.

 

[chris]

^^^ x2. It needs a connector to the other trails.

 

[Spence]

Not only does it need to be more difficult IMHO it needs to be looped back into the system. Daniel being the only trail on that side of the road makes it a one way trail IMHO. Either you go up Daniel and move the tow rig or you go up Daniel run URE and then back down Daniel. I would love to see another trial that hooks the bottom of Daniel back into the system.

Agreed.
This isnt a big deal to people with tagged rigs, but is pretty annoying to those of us with unregistered rigs.

 

[drkelly]

Not only does it need to be more difficult IMHO it needs to be looped back into the system. Daniel being the only trail on that side of the road makes it a one way trail IMHO. Either you go up Daniel and move the tow rig or you go up Daniel run URE and then back down Daniel. I would love to see another trial that hooks the bottom of Daniel back into the system.

There use to be a trail named Goldmine that went from the bottom of Daniel to Dickey Bell near where it crosses the road. I think it was closed due to erosion problems or run off into the creeks and streams. A new trail needs to be opened, and rerouted to avoid the problems of the old one. I mentioned a need for this trail specifically in my reply to the FS on the UNF management plan that was posted here recently for everyone to comment on.

 

[backntac]

let me start by saying URE is a great place it is were i started and i will always go back.
but i agree that if daniel is the so called most difficult trail there then it should be. if you can't make it. there is room to turn around and go back at the first ledge. when i go to a park to wheel i like the trail to change and move. but every year i go back to URE it does but it changed and moved into a road not a more difficult trail. i agree that alot of the trails there should be easily done, but that in my head is why the daniel trail stands by its self u can't just come across it, u know starting it that it's the big nasty.

 

[DRaider90]

There use to be a trail named Goldmine that went from the bottom of Daniel to Dickey Bell near where it crosses the road. I think it was closed due to erosion problems or run off into the creeks and streams. A new trail needs to be opened, and rerouted to avoid the problems of the old one. I mentioned a need for this trail specifically in my reply to the FS on the UNF management plan that was posted here recently for everyone to comment on.

Yeah to my understanding Goldmine will never be re-opened because of major hydrology issues. But it would still be nice to have a connector trail for Daniel. Only thing is for it to be most efficient it would have to be longer than just the section between Daniel and Dickey Bell. Otherwise people with non registered rigs would be left with 2 options. Turn around and go back, or run Daniel. The connector trail would have to loop back to Saw Mill or Rocky Mnt Loop.

A connector trail between Dickey Bell and Daniel would be a good start. But to complete the project it would have to loop back to an easier/moderate trail.

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

I'm glad the old ledge (switch back) was graded and leveled. While it was fun if your rig could do it. It was scary watching unprepared people go up it, get stuck and almost flip over.

I'd like to see more 'play areas' opened up. There are many rock formations around and if they can be opened up better, it would help lesson the need for other trails to be more difficult.

Things like poser rock, kodak area, mud pit etc IMHO have all created a specific area for that. Each area also has sufficient room to allow folks to get off the trail and traffic to pass, room for recovery etc.

I think more areas close to the parking lots would help and possibly more on the top side, near the Art Lilly camp area..

 

[drkelly]

Yeah to my understanding Goldmine will never be re-opened because of major hydrology issues. But it would still be nice to have a connector trail for Daniel. Only thing is for it to be most efficient it would have to be longer than just the section between Daniel and Dickey Bell. Otherwise people with non registered rigs would be left with 2 options. Turn around and go back, or run Daniel. The connector trail would have to loop back to Saw Mill or Rocky Mnt Loop.

A connector trail between Dickey Bell and Daniel would be a good start. But to complete the project it would have to loop back to an easier/moderate trail.

I don't follow your logic. A trail leading from the bottom of Daniel to Dickey Bell would complete a 'loop' and elminate the need to have to turn around at the bottom of Daniel for those with unregistered rigs. The recently posted UNF proposed management plan specifically stated that they wanted to work to create more loops and eliminate 'dead end' trails. See my attached map. I have posted this before showing a couple of the old trails I remember riding my dirt bike on back in the early 90's down at Uwharrie.

 

[DRaider90]

Lets say Gold Mine as shown on your map is re-opened/re-routed for arguments sake. You come up Dickey Bell and turn off on Gold Mine. You ride Gold Mine over to the Daniel parking lot. From there if you are driving a non registered vehicle, you have 2 choices. Drive up Daniel, or turn around and go back up Gold Mine. This would make Gold Mine purely a trail to run if you were coming/going from Daniel (due to its increased difficulty), deterring others from running the trail (unless again they wanted to turn back around and run the trail going up, which is the same problem with Daniel right now) . For Gold Mine to effectively be a complete connector trail it would have to keep going and loop back to Saw Mill or Rocky Mnt Loop (less difficult trails) up near the 576/553 intersection.

 

[ghost]

Yeah to my understanding Goldmine will never be re-opened because of major hydrology issues. But it would still be nice to have a connector trail for Daniel. Only thing is for it to be most efficient it would have to be longer than just the section between Daniel and Dickey Bell. Otherwise people with non registered rigs would be left with 2 options. Turn around and go back, or run Daniel. The connector trail would have to loop back to Saw Mill or Rocky Mnt Loop.
A connector trail between Dickey Bell and Daniel would be a good start. But to complete the project it would have to loop back to an easier/moderate trail.

What do you mean by Hydrology issues?

I'm glad the old ledge (switch back) was graded and leveled. While it was fun if your rig could do it. It was scary watching unprepared people go up it, get stuck and almost flip over.
I'd like to see more 'play areas' opened up. There are many rock formations around and if they can be opened up better, it would help lesson the need for other trails to be more difficult.
Things like poser rock, kodak area, mud pit etc IMHO have all created a specific area for that. Each area also has sufficient room to allow folks to get off the trail and traffic to pass, room for recovery etc.
I think more areas close to the parking lots would help and possibly more on the top side, near the Art Lilly camp area..

This is a good idea. I did not know there was approval of a play area and that it never got built.

I don't follow your logic. A trail leading from the bottom of Daniel to Dickey Bell would complete a 'loop' and elminate the need to have to turn around at the bottom of Daniel for those with unregistered rigs. The recently posted UNF proposed management plan specifically stated that they wanted to work to create more loops and eliminate 'dead end' trails. See my attached map. I have posted this before showing a couple of the old trails I remember riding my dirt bike on back in the early 90's down at Uwharrie.

Why could it not parallel Dickey Bell then loop back into it near the entrance?

 

[DRaider90]

Hydrology issues on Gold Mine mainly involves the extremely steep incline/hill that drains almost directly into a neary by stream/river.

 

[98xjjeep]

I dont think Daniel should be messed with much. Other then new guardrails ect. I think its cool to have a tough trail that not everyone and their grandma can make it. BTW im just on 31s with one locker and even i think daniel should be a trail that i couldnt make without a winch. I think there should be more spectator areas like the top of RM and daniel. Maybe have a walking trail going up to daniel from the cotton place parking lot. Diffinatly get rid of bypasses but have areas to pull off if you break. There should also be more obsticales then just a couple ledges. Right now the hardest part is one ledge and that means the rest of the trail is a cake walk. If the trail had 5 or so hard sections to it then that would make it a hard trail with hard sections and not a easy trail with one hard section.

 

[Dylan W.]

There were discussions of a rock garden to play on..way back when the first race was held at URE.

I was told that it was a great idea and very very possible, but we would have to make it happen. Back then, the ''we'' was American Wheeler.

I have always thought that a supreme rock garden/play area was a great idea. It would probably lessen the trail traffic a bit, and it would,if built right, attract a few more hardcore wheelers to the area(was thinking about local economy)

When the idea first popped into my head, I had a vision of this great play area right at the double parking lots on the Daniel side of the road. Folks could unload and crawl while others could watch from the nearby parking lot. It is close to bathrooms and trash cans and handicap accesable(sp)---if built right.

BUT..I dont have the money or a tractor to do this and it is still just a vision.

This play area could also be used for various competitions too.

 

[Jeep07]

I went to ure for the first time about 2 months ago. I brought my pretty much stock rubi. I was pleased with the park as a whole and must say I'm impressed with how they have so many available activities. I ride Harlan and mtn city a lot so my pov will come from lessons learned there.

Daniel is what I'd consider a good intermediate trail. If you look at Harlan or mountain city the hard obstacles are usually short offshoot trails from larger trails. I think this is a good system or rule to follow since that keeps broken rigs from clogging longer trails etc. From my memory daniel wasn't a super short trail so I'd leave it in a similar state. Then work with the fs on a few shorter trails that bring a pucker factor.

I plan on returning to ure this fall for some camping and family trail riding for sure though so please make sure it's still open

Thanks for all the volunteer work you guys do there.

 

[rockcity]

There were discussions of a rock garden to play on..way back when the first race was held at URE.
I was told that it was a great idea and very very possible, but we would have to make it happen. Back then, the ''we'' was American Wheeler.
I have always thought that a supreme rock garden/play area was a great idea. It would probably lessen the trail traffic a bit, and it would,if built right, attract a few more hardcore wheelers to the area(was thinking about local economy)
When the idea first popped into my head, I had a vision of this great play area right at the double parking lots on the Daniel side of the road. Folks could unload and crawl while others could watch from the nearby parking lot. It is close to bathrooms and trash cans and handicap accesable(sp)---if built right.
BUT..I dont have the money or a tractor to do this and it is still just a vision.
This play area could also be used for various competitions too.

I have a hard time investing a lot of time and $$$ into adding things to a public trail system other than volunteer time to maintain existing trails. Before too long, URE will be under fire just like Tellico. So much for getting any "return" out of any efforts.

However, if there was a guarantee that the lands would be open for an extended given number of years I could see spending time and $$$ on a rock garden. But, we all know that'll never happen

 

[Yay!Gurrr]

I hope that many alternatives, suggestions and ideas are being presented to the FS.

What if.... The trail was rerouted (I haven't looked at a topo) but something like the line drawn in. It would crate an 'easy' loop as well as reduce the single path for those who need to stay on the trails. Would this also possibly move the trail away from the step hills and run off problems..

 

[ord.sgt.26NC]

No way! Make the first and last obstacles the hardest, so that you don't underbuilt rigs getting stuck or broke halfway in.

you gonna be judging what is underbuilt? Easy to build a trail like this on private land that you can govern what gets on it.Concidering this is PUBLIC land paid for with mine,yours,and evry other yahoos tax money,I don't think it's right to build a trail only Master X on his buggy rolling on 42s can do. I do daniel and I think the trail is fine for the type wheeling I do.I have to be pulled up the first ledge but I have no problems with that and don't spend much time before the strap is hooked.Now just like I have made a decission to keep my 60 year old vehicle stock nad wheel it like she came,I have to figure out if a trail is too much for me or not and use my good judgment to ride that particular trail.If your decission was to build a monster rig that is point and shoot and what is a technical trail for most ,well isn't for you, is not my problem and I don't feel like my tax money needs to be used to fix trails that only a sellect few can use. Plus I hate to tell you but drunk Ahole on his stock grand cherokee and road tires will still try it, no matter how difficult you build it,in the public trail system.