small45
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2007
- Location
- green hill nc
so you noticed i wasn't braggin on the 
powerchoke
powerchoke
duramax or cummins
- Thread starter DieselWhale
- Start date
A lot of people say this because Cummins publishes this information as a marketing ploy to try to sell more engines. The Ford 7.3 which is the International T444E (though for Ford, the programming is done by Ford instead of International) is/was used in medium duty applications as well. I do not know your experience with the 4R100 transmission, but it is not a bad transmission at all (especially when compared to the dodge autos of the same year) I have first hand experience of abusing the Ford auto and it last to 225k miles. I can scan the rebuild info if you desire. Below is a letter International Harvester issued to counter the claims of Cummins. As I stated before, the T444E is International’s version
Claim: The ISB has longer life than the T444E. This is an apples and oranges comparison. They use two different baselines of measurement in this claim. They say the ISB has an "average" engine life of 350,000 miles and the T444E has only 200,000 miles "by Navistar's own published information". It has become popular in the diesel engine business to describe engine durability in terms of "Bx life". This is usually described as B10 life; the time, in miles or hours of operation, that 10% of the units in service will require major repair. The remaining 90% will go farther. (Navistar's definition of major repair to an engine is when the repair requires removal of the cylinder head and/or the oil pan.) Other Bx numbers can be used, the next most popular being B50 life, where 50% of the engines will have required repair. This can be looked upon as "average" life to overhaul. For a more complete discussion of Bx life see another Did You Know letter DUK#231.
In their comparison Cummins is relating their "average" life, or B50, as 350,000 miles and stating our published life estimate is 200,000 miles. Yes, but that 200,000 number is our B10 life. They're comparing our 10% rebuild time to their 50% rebuild time. The B50 life of the T444E has been found to be 350,000 miles also. Let's use a table to show this more clearly.
B10 B50
T444E 200,000 350,000
ISB 200,000* 350,000
* Estimated, Cummins does not publish this number. But, wait, there's more. They're basing the durability claim on experience with the previous B family. Their literature proclaims that the ISB has many new designs different from the previous mechanical fueled B family. New crankcase, new cylinder head, new valve arrangement with four valves per cylinder, new valve lever ("overhead") design, new piston design, new fuel system and new electronic controls. Using the previous B family history as a measure of the ISB durability is questionable logic. Our assessment of the T444E is based on four years of successful experience with the current design.
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2005
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
OP: Which should I buy? A Chevy or a Dodge?
Fordmgt1: The 444 motor that Ford hasn't used for the last seven years is just as good as the 6BT !!1!!1!!!!!!!
Fordmgt1: The 444 motor that Ford hasn't used for the last seven years is just as good as the 6BT !!1!!1!!!!!!!
Hurley
WTFab
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Location
- Statesville
^what he said.
Dan2500Brown
Active Member
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2009
- Location
- Concord, NC
To be Cummin you gotta be Strokin, and to be Strokin you gotta be hard as a rock! 
Fordmgt1: The 444 motor that Ford hasn't used for the last seven years is just as good as the 6BT !!1!!1!!!!!!!
ha ha ha, trust me, I know... too bad they polluted like a freight train and could not still be used. It took me a long time to find a 7.3 with low miles.
I did not mean to turn this into a chevy/ford/dodge debate. There are a million of those on the internet as it is.
rock-lucky
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Location
- Bristol TN
I love Ford 7.3 motors. It is ashame they aren't allowed to use them anymore. I was just mainly speaking of the 6.0 and later. However I myself will countinue to use cummins as my choice motor. That being said I bought the last year of the 5.9 because it was the last year. It is also hard to compare a common rail motor to an older 12 valve or even 24valve motor. Like I said before its all on where the purchaser wants to spend their hard earned cash. I am just glad no dumb ass has said " Hey, did you know Ford owns Cummings"(CUMMINS)
Croatan_Kid
How's your hammer hangin'?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Location
- New Bern
That's because Ford doesn't own them. 
Read on, and you shall see. It's pretty complicated.
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
( With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44.
That's some pretty good information. I was pretty intrigued when I read it myself.
Since I'm a Chevy guy and I wanted a good diesel truck, I built one. I stuck a first gen Cummins in my M1008 with an NV4500 and an NP205, however, since that's not an option I would buy a Dodge more than likely. Especially if I was going for a used truck. It'd have to be a 12 vavle, probably 2nd gen or a first gen and swap in an NV4500 for the Getrag. It's pretty hard to find a good price on a used GM truck for some reason, although I would love to have one, I just couldn't spend the money on one.
One saying I have always lived by is no matter how many times I have to repair a truck, it's still cheaper than the payment of a brand new one. Plus, as vehilces get a little older, parts are somewhat cheaper, insurance goes down, and you're not as worried about it getting a dent or ding in it. Either way, you're going to have to spend money. I just prefer to keep the same vehicles for as long as I can. That way I know every square inch of it, I can fix anything that goes wrong, and I enjoy doing that.
Read on, and you shall see. It's pretty complicated.
(1) Isuzu owned Subaru, and sold out to Fuji Heavy Industries, which was then jointly acquired by British Leyland and Ford.
(2) BL & Ford then spun off Fuji/Subaru into an independent company. Big mistake. Ford bought BL, and owned Isuzu outright. Big mistake.
(3) Isuzu entered into a joint development partnership with Navistar International. Stock interests were traded. Eventually, one of the projects would be a 7.3L V-8 light-duty diesel. Guess who picked that one up for use in its pickup trucks?
(4) Navistar also had entered into a joint development partnership with Caterpillar. One of the projects was a direct injection system that would be picked up by -- Ford. And Isuzu mediums.
(5) Caterpillar owned a large chunk of Bosch. GM owned another big chunk. And so did a third major player -- Daimler Benz. Bosch was the primary developer of Caterpillar's direct injection system. But GM forced Caterpillar to turn over its share of Bosch, and then forced Bosch to abandon direct injection in favor of developing an "improved" generation rotary injection pumps. The initial designs for those pumps had been brought to GM by former Isuzu engineers working for Ford.
(6) What did Caterpillar receive in return for giving GM its stock in Bosch? GM's stock in Cummins. Ford then sold its small share of Cummins stock because of antitrust regulations in the U.S. Caterpillar, on the other hand, avoided antitrust problems by a joint incorporation agreement with Cummins under a Brazilian operation named Inquardo, Ltd.
(7) Eventually almost all Cummins manufacturing and design were moved over to that part of the "house". However, that move proved so efficient and profitable that Cummins began to eat into significant markets for Caterpillar, so Caterpillar merged its manufacturing and design base with Cummins in Brazil, leaving skeleton operations only in places like Peoria, Illinois. Cummins management largely pushed out Caterpillar management after several years.
( With me so far? Caterpillar owns Cummins, but Cummins has effectively "eaten" Caterpillar. In Brazil. Here, they're separate, of course, but it's only the purposes of adhering to American commercial law. But wait. There's more.
(9) Ford had some disasterous capitalization-and-flow problems after the overseas buying spree of the early nineties, during which it acquired British Leyland, Isuzu, Fuji, part of Fiat, and parts of other companies. Ford was forced to sell Isuzu to maintain cash flow beyond the U.S. Who did they sell Isuzu to? Navistar International. Along with certain manufacturing and sourcing arrangements. Navistar hoped to go global again, as in the grand old days of International Harvester.
(10) But Navistar couldn't hold on to Isuzu either, what with a $2 billion dollar loss in 1995, and eventually sold its controlling interest in the company to Daimler Benz.
(11) Isuzu was having its own problems, since its global market share in light and medium diesels was rapidly shrinking. The cause of the problem was Cummins, which, after swallowing Caterpillar - in Brazil - had also acquired NGT, Tapei Technologies, Allison Canada, and Nansen-Renault, all in hostile takeovers, all manufacturers of diesel technologies outside of the U.S. So, Cummins had effectively cornered the controlling share of the global market outside of North America and Western Europe. (Why do you think the splashgate at their website is so heavily global?)
(12) After nine months of negotiation, Cummins and its subsidiary, Allison Canada, entered into a joint development arrangement with Isuzu, owned by Daimler, and with the surviving U.S. corporation, Allison, which was at that point partly owned by GM. Cummins, however, dominated the partnership, and eventually managed to assume Daimler's and GM's interests in Isuzu and and Allison.
(13) In the case of Isuzu, Cummins has an equal partnership with Daimler, which, of course, has also acquired Chrysler Corporation. That's why, when Ford offered Cummins a billion-dollar package to manfacture medium and light truck diesels for its vehicles in 2001, Cummins said no. Again, for antitrust reasons, a public holding company was set up to handle Isuzu as a separate corporate entity. The name of the company is Benz Transporation Technologies, of San Paulo, Brazil. BTT also is a major owner of the Benz division of Daimler Chrysler, which manufacturers most of the diesel engines in Europe. In the case of Allison, Cummins controls it through a series of holding companies ending with Inquardo, Ltd., the orginal Caterpillar-Cummins creation in Brazil. Cummins also controls a fair-size block of stock in GM, through the ownership of a cartel of South Korean and Thai banks and investment groups.
(14) Navistar has continued its free-fall in spite of its partnership with Ford in the light-duty diesel area. Three weeks ago, after the implications of labor troubles, a rise in basic resource costs, and the disasterous introduction of the 6.0L PSD had become clear, Navistar's financial arrangements with Citibank and Manufacturers B&T collapsed. Both banks arranged to float the company infrastructural loans if it would agree to a merger with -- are you ready for this? -- Inquardo, Ltd. As of last Thursday, Cummins owns 67% of Navistar through Inquardo.
Right now, Cummins makes all diesels in all pickup trucks sold in the United States. Cummins makes 73% of all diesels in all trucks sold in the world. The board of directors at Inquardo -- which isn't listed on any stock exchange -- includes 9 Cummins execs, 2 Caterpillar execs, and one Wells Fargo Bank exec. The CEO and CFO are also Cummins vice presidents. And there are Cummins execs on the boards of Daimler Chrysler, General Motors, Toyota, and Honda America. Ford, the holdout, has not been doing very well.
So it isn't a question of who owns Cummins. It's a question of who Cummins owns, and who's next. Could be Ford. Could be DC. Could be both. Ford Viper, anyone? Mercedes Mustang with a 6.0L Shelby Diesel and a Holset twin turbo?
And some have claimed that the new Navistar/Ford 6.0L is Cummins' revenge for the Bosch VP44.
That's some pretty good information. I was pretty intrigued when I read it myself.
Since I'm a Chevy guy and I wanted a good diesel truck, I built one. I stuck a first gen Cummins in my M1008 with an NV4500 and an NP205, however, since that's not an option I would buy a Dodge more than likely. Especially if I was going for a used truck. It'd have to be a 12 vavle, probably 2nd gen or a first gen and swap in an NV4500 for the Getrag. It's pretty hard to find a good price on a used GM truck for some reason, although I would love to have one, I just couldn't spend the money on one.
One saying I have always lived by is no matter how many times I have to repair a truck, it's still cheaper than the payment of a brand new one. Plus, as vehilces get a little older, parts are somewhat cheaper, insurance goes down, and you're not as worried about it getting a dent or ding in it. Either way, you're going to have to spend money. I just prefer to keep the same vehicles for as long as I can. That way I know every square inch of it, I can fix anything that goes wrong, and I enjoy doing that.
stevewes2004
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
- Location
- Concord, NC
Short and Sweet: It will boil down to personal preference like Hurley said, but the fact of the matter is that the Cummins engine design is superior to the Duramax. And im definitly not hatin on the Duramax. If it were me, the choice would be between the Cummins or 7.3 Powerstroke for a tow rig.
You can make every truck look good, but you can't make every truck as reliable as those two.
You can make every truck look good, but you can't make every truck as reliable as those two.
Croatan_Kid
How's your hammer hangin'?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Location
- New Bern
Agreed. I love the simplicity of the Cummins. Anything that deals with water has a large o-ring, so there's no gaskets to scrape or sealants to apply. Your water pump could crap out and it'd take about 15 mins to change on the side of the road, most parts are readily available at locals parts stores and on the older models (12 valves), there's very little electronics to deal with.
rock-lucky
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2008
- Location
- Bristol TN
I hope you understand my previous post about "glad some dumbass didn't say (Hey Ford owns Cummins) as being sarcasim.
Croatan_Kid
How's your hammer hangin'?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Location
- New Bern
yeah, i did. I just figured I'd post that for grins and giggles. It's a good read.
The Punisher
Member
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2009
- Location
- Loris, South Carolina
I vote Duramax. I love my 04', it will pull my trailer with my heavy ass Scout as fast as i want and the brakin feature in the allison is awesome.Yes its had the injectors replaced but gm made a 200,000 mile warranty for that but All makers have problems, so the choice is up to you. Thats my 2 cents
77GreenMachine
Phillip Talton
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2010
- Location
- Trinity, NC
i would def agree on the cummins with the 6 speed manual. cummins has proven to be the best in pulling, and if you do any mods just upgrade to a SouthBend clutch. kinda expensive but you'll never have to worry about it again.
besides, the duramax lacks in power and its just too much $ to unleash its potential.
exhaust and intake on a Cummins and you will FEEL the difference.
besides, the duramax lacks in power and its just too much $ to unleash its potential.
exhaust and intake on a Cummins and you will FEEL the difference.
farmboy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2005
- Location
- @ Your Mailbox
Personally love my cummins but I would not just talk junk about the dmax. Pretty much everone I know has one or the other.
stevewes2004
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
- Location
- Concord, NC
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2005
- Location
- Sharon, SC
Its a good read, but so full of shit its not funny.
I dont have the time to go line by line, but that is a popular piece thaat takes very small fractional ealinsg and expands them.
For all the BS Ford owns Cummins people...CMI is worth more than Ford, considerably more.
The engine business is not quite half of CMI's business interest, and certainly isn;t its most profitable.
NA is the only place in the world where you cant buy an F250 with a Cummins....the Dodge contract exclusivly forbids it.
Go to south america or africa they are quite popular.
My information is gained from having my check signed by CMI and having to listen to monthly shareholder earning conference calls.
Take it from someone who owned a Duramax and Cummins at the same time. The Duramax is going to get a little better mileage than an auto Cummins, but if you are looking at a 6 spd then that is a wash. I could not wait to get my Chevy sold. Loved the motor and tranny, truck was junk.
Rattles, loose interior parts, brakes about like a half ton truck, no suspension for carring more than your kids without sitting on the bump-stops, rattling through the steering wheel, crappy mirrors, 4 mile turn radius, expensive fuel filters, low ground clearance, seats that were designed for a woman, no storage (no opening center console), thin paint that chips super easy, etc.
I think you get the picture. Chevy has a good motor/tranny combo, just ashame the can't put it in a real truck. Dodge is ten times the truck. Not trying to start a truck war, this is just my opinion since I owned both the Dodge and Chevy.
Rattles, loose interior parts, brakes about like a half ton truck, no suspension for carring more than your kids without sitting on the bump-stops, rattling through the steering wheel, crappy mirrors, 4 mile turn radius, expensive fuel filters, low ground clearance, seats that were designed for a woman, no storage (no opening center console), thin paint that chips super easy, etc.
I think you get the picture. Chevy has a good motor/tranny combo, just ashame the can't put it in a real truck. Dodge is ten times the truck. Not trying to start a truck war, this is just my opinion since I owned both the Dodge and Chevy.
stevewes2004
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
- Location
- Concord, NC
^^^^^^thats real input. from someone who owned both.
My situation doesn't compare exactly to yours but to add paint to the picture....
I owned a 04 Dodge 1500 Hemi 4x4 for 18k miles. The interior was ok (front bench) but the mileage sucked (yes I know not a diesel). It towed my 23 Hydrosport CC ok. Sold it a long time ago...
Recently bought an 06 Chevy Duramax 4x4 for a tow rig for my LCs. I like the interior better than the Dodge (my Chevy has front buckets with the 'true' center console). I did have the steering rattle but was an easy fix with an updated part (has been fine for 10k miles now). The interior doesn't rattle, but the leather is not very durable (haven't had experience with the Dodge leather to compare).
Regardless of the truck you choose I'd recommend a pre-DPF/emissions truck. Better mileage, less inspection hassle and less gadgets to deal with. I think you'll be happy with either one, just don't expect the truck to be perfect.
stevewes2004
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
- Location
- Concord, NC
^^^^agree 100% on that one.
Croatan_Kid
How's your hammer hangin'?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2007
- Location
- New Bern
SkyHi, good info. Always interested in keeping up with stuff like that. I wish NA would embrace the diesel life style like the rest of the world has...
Did the original poster ever make a decision?
Did the original poster ever make a decision?