Electrical help

shawn said:
You'll probably have to buy a new breaker. Tripping them will wear them out.
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Continuously replacing breakers does not fix the problem. Just kills time and money and wears tires.

Although our topic is very irreverent and heading off on a tangent here until we figure out what's going on and back on track.
 
6BangBronk said:
If you don't have at least 10 gage for a short run if not 8 gage depending on the distance than yes, it is HIGHLY recommended to replace the wire to reduce the chances of overloading the wire. How far is the panel box from the outlet?

Most dryers are 30 amp. Most welders are 50 amp. If you put a 50 amp welder on a designed to be 30 amp circuit then you better have good fire insurance. But if the wire is adequately sized, then all you do is abandon one of the wires for the welder only needs 3 wires.

To replace the wire isn't much a big deal either with a fish tape if you need to upsize it. You basically abandon the old one and run a new one. You can cut out the old one just at the holes and run the new one up the old holes.
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There is a whole lot of well meaning but yet wonky info here.
#1...I dont ever recommend anyone who isnt very familiar with electricity to re run 2 phase circuits in a house especially with a fish tape. That is a recipe for either a fish tape ending up inside a live panel (and I'm betting the non electrician doesnt have a fiberglass fishtape) or a drill bit eating a bunch of wires up because if you are increasing the wire size its a fair bet you are going to need to (or SHOULD) increase the hole size. (Hint just because "it fits" doesnt mean its sized properly) And everything comes near that panel so if you are drilling a new hole lots of wires in that area.

Now all that aside...yes distance plays a role in wire size. But in most resi applications run lengths dont get to the point where it really matters.

Wire temp rating will matter a whole lot more.
For example on the #10 awg referenced above a 75 degree insulated wire (THHW, THWN, etc) is rated for 35A without de-rates. However a 60 degree (TW or UF regularly find their way into homes even though I suggest they never should) that 10 is only good for 30A before derates. Now if you local friendly electrician carried some THHN thats 90 degree rated heck you have 40A to play with.

Take away - there is a 33% variance here just based on type of cable where a super long (resi) run may cause a 5% de-rate.

There is a reason every EC license test Ive ever seen had at least 3 questions straight outta 310.16...


And all this is before we even start on 310.15.b.2.a adjustment factors ...
 
Okay the dryer is MAYBE 10 feet from panel. If I look at it this afternoon and I need a bigger breaker and wire I will just put in a whole new breaker and wire it outside the wall in pipe. Just didn't want to do that unless I had to cause its a borrowed welder
 
Solution. Forget electricity this stuff will stick together what ever you need.
download (2).jpg


On a serious note. If your panel has room and you will be borrowing a welder again in the future why not just install a plug for the welder where ever you want it.
 
Ron said:
There is a whole lot of well meaning but yet wonky info here.
#1...I dont ever recommend anyone who isnt very familiar with electricity to re run 2 phase circuits in a house especially with a fish tape. That is a recipe for either a fish tape ending up inside a live panel (and I'm betting the non electrician doesnt have a fiberglass fishtape) or a drill bit eating a bunch of wires up because if you are increasing the wire size its a fair bet you are going to need to (or SHOULD) increase the hole size. (Hint just because "it fits" doesnt mean its sized properly) And everything comes near that panel so if you are drilling a new hole lots of wires in that area.

Now all that aside...yes distance plays a role in wire size. But in most resi applications run lengths dont get to the point where it really matters.

Wire temp rating will matter a whole lot more.
For example on the #10 awg referenced above a 75 degree insulated wire (THHW, THWN, etc) is rated for 35A without de-rates. However a 60 degree (TW or UF regularly find their way into homes even though I suggest they never should) that 10 is only good for 30A before derates. Now if you local friendly electrician carried some THHN thats 90 degree rated heck you have 40A to play with.

Take away - there is a 33% variance here just based on type of cable where a super long (resi) run may cause a 5% de-rate.

There is a reason every EC license test Ive ever seen had at least 3 questions straight outta 310.16...


And all this is before we even start on 310.15.b.2.a adjustment factors ...
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I guess if you've got to engineer a hole drilled in wood then yes, I'm with Rock

Sell the house... Buy one with the correct plug...:flipoff2:
 
Plug it in and run it.

I doubt you are going to be actually welding near the rated 200a output, meaning you will be below the rated 40a input.

If you draw too much, you will trip the breaker. That's what circuit breakers are for. The protect the wiring from over current.

Get it to plug in and weld away....
 
6BangBronk said:
I guess if you've got to engineer a hole drilled in wood then yes, I'm with Rock

Sell the house... Buy one with the correct plug...:flipoff2:
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Just pointing out that if the wire is a squeeze fit it cant thermally expand and will fail
 
Ron said:
Just pointing out that if the wire is a squeeze fit it cant thermally expand and will fail
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Wouldn't the situation where either a wire fits or not be determined by the existing hole and not the existing wire then as you stated???:lol:

I'm having as much fun with this as I do with all the Engineers I work with.:rockon:

If it runs... DRIVE IT!!!
 
6BangBronk said:
Wouldn't the situation where either a wire fits or not be determined by the existing hole and not the existing wire then as you stated???:lol:

I'm having as much fun with this as I do with all the Engineers I work with.:rockon:

If it runs... DRIVE IT!!!
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What?
I'm not sure question makes any sense.

There is an existing hole and an existing wire. Let's assume they are both sized appropriately.

Now you need to install a larger wire. You suggested to pull out the old wire and install a new (larger) one.
It is very possible that you can shove and/or pull a larger wire through the existing hole, but it is also possible that the hole will be too tight for the new wire to be installed in it SAFELY.
 
Ron said:
What?
I'm not sure question makes any sense.

There is an existing hole and an existing wire. Let's assume they are both sized appropriately.

Now you need to install a larger wire. You suggested to pull out the old wire and install a new (larger) one.
It is very possible that you can shove and/or pull a larger wire through the existing hole, but it is also possible that the hole will be too tight for the new wire to be installed in it SAFELY.
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Ron you're entire bunch of moolahhh makes no sense for a 4-10 gage wire is bigger than a freakin 3-8 gage?:rockon:

Engineers... :-)

So I got to ask... Ron have you ever drilled a hole in wood? :lol:
 
Love it!!! ^^^^

Ron's concerned with the hole for replacing a 4-10 gage with a 3-8. (If you know Standard Electrical terms for 4 wires at 10 gage wrapped into a single sleeve vs. 3 wires at 8 gage wrapped into a single sleeve) The replacement wire would be a smaller hole to begin with. .4076" with a .3855... How much more English you need???

Just seems Engineers over look the obvious. And experience goes much further than any schooling. That's all.

The most important factor here is...

IT WORKS!!!! LET's WELD!!!
 
#1 I'll put dollars against donuts Ive drilled way more holes in wood than you have. Dont really like that insult.
#2 I'm a licensed EC not an engineer.
#3 Genius he needs 4 wires there for the dryer. While he only needs 3 for the welder he will need to run a 4 conductor so that the recep can serve its real intended purpose of powering the dryer when he isnt welding.
#4 Just because its what is laying on my desk. The nominal OD of a piece of 10-4 SO is .715. The nominal OD of a piece of 8-3 SO is .720. Now who is the wise ass....

Just seems funny that an engineer (6bangbronK)is calling out someone else for being an engineer who isn't and has his technical facts wrong.
 
:beer:

Love you Ron! :smokin: Guess sometimes Google is wrong.

And I guess all I got to follow that up with is that even my wife tells me it won't fit... I say it will!!!:rockon:

And I've been on an Engineer bash today since they all seem to not get the facts straight and I'm stuck here at this job all night to cover their lacking of common sense.
 
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Ron said:
#1 I'll put dollars against donuts Ive drilled way more holes in wood than you have. Dont really like that insult.
#2 I'm a licensed EC not an engineer.
#3 Genius he needs 4 wires there for the dryer. While he only needs 3 for the welder he will need to run a 4 conductor so that the recep can serve its real intended purpose of powering the dryer when he isnt welding.
#4 Just because its what is laying on my desk. The nominal OD of a piece of 10-4 SO is .715. The nominal OD of a piece of 8-3 SO is .720. Now who is the wise ass....

Just seems funny that an engineer (6bangbronK)is calling out someone else for being an engineer who isn't and has his technical facts wrong.
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American wire gauge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you get the chance and want to educate me, why can't I go with this?
 
6BangBronk said:
American wire gauge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you get the chance and want to educate me, why can't I go with this?
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Because the wire manufacturers understand the point I was making about thermal expansion.
In addition to the size of the wire, to encase the wire inside another sheath you need to include space for expansion. Ever see that cord or rope orr string or paper or wtf ever else inside the sheath. It is there to provide impact and crush resistance and fill void space. It grows in relation to the conductor size.

Oh and also because wire is round.And when you stack 3 or 4 round objects together there is a void. More wires, more void.
 
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