Generators?

Zebbie

Zebbie

Active Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Location
Rock Hill SC
i just got a generator for back up if the power goes out at the house and for camping. We have a popup camper. i am excited about being able to take the camper somewhere else besides the campground.

I read in the directions the generator has to be grounded. I have seen people using generators at ure but i have not noticed they were grounded. Does everyone take a ground rod when they go camping?
 
internet has a lot of debates about it looks like census is if u wire it directly into house (which cant do without a transfer switch) only then do u need a grounding rod. if u use outlets on generator then frame is good enough.

It is good to know you dont use a grounding rod. so that backs up this internet finding. I feel better now cuz it would suck pounding in a 8' ground rod. it is enough just setting up everything else.
 
silveryota said:
internet has a lot of debates about it looks like census is if u wire it directly into house (which cant do without a transfer switch) only then do u need a grounding rod.
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Nope
When our power goes out we put our generator on the porch and run some wire to the panel flip the main off and pull the cover and wire it in were a breaker goes and then you got power. Transfer switch is faster but more expensive.
 
silveryota said:
internet has a lot of debates about it looks like census is if u wire it directly into house (which cant do without a transfer switch) only then do u need a grounding rod. if u use outlets on generator then frame is good enough.

It is good to know you dont use a grounding rod. so that backs up this internet finding. I feel better now cuz it would suck pounding in a 8' ground rod. it is enough just setting up everything else.
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Power(ground) is grounded to frame of generator, ground runs to it's outlets, Your three prong plug or 4 is grounded here, and transfers ground to breaker box. Most often, common and ground is tied together, and runs to a ground( copper stake in the ground.

If you wanted to feel better about it, and sometimes, there's no success like excess, you can make up a jumper to clamp on the grounding rod and the generator frame.
 
depending on size ie: voltage and wattage, you may need to turn off all your 220V stuff and leave on only the 110V stuff. Still you may want to rotate use of all the 110V stuff, worse thing you can do is starve any electice device for power. It will heat up windings and shorten life.
 
uhhh...yuck.

I dont want my name tied too much to this discussion...
But I will just say this, think about fault current, or moreover max available fault current. We are not talking utility equivalent here, especially if you have a gas powered as I suspect. Sure though any ungrounded current could potentially be transferred to a human in a fault condition.
 
Heres an idea. Harbor freight sells a slide hammer for $19.00 . Weld a collar to the long side that the accessories screw onto, and then also grind that end into a point. Hammer in, and hammer out. Just use your jumper cables for a ground wire.
 
Stuntman Autoworks said:
run some wire to the panel flip the main off and pull the cover and wire it in were a breaker goes and then you got power. Transfer switch is faster but more expensive.
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Mine back-feeds thru my welder receptacle :D

A transfer switch is just to protect everyone (liability wise) from idiots with no business owning generators, much less attempting to wire them into their houses...
 
Caver Dave said:
Mine back-feeds thru my welder receptacle :D

A transfer switch is just to protect everyone (liability wise) from idiots with no business owning generators, much less attempting to wire them into their houses...
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No, no its not.
A transfer switch (manual or auto) actually starts the generator. If it doesn't start the gen its not a transfer switch.
Secondly a transfer switch properly installed completely isolates the utility from the current produced by the gen, flipping the main breaker in a panel does not.
Next a breaker is not designed to be back fed, so while it works it is not great for the breaker and will shorten its life.

A house can be safely ran on a generator by back feeding a receptacle, it will never be as safe or "right" but it can be done. But a true transfer switch has a whole different function.
 
Ron said:
No, no its not.
A transfer switch (manual or auto) actually starts the generator. If it doesn't start the gen its not a transfer switch.
Secondly a transfer switch properly installed completely isolates the utility from the current produced by the gen, flipping the main breaker in a panel does not.
Next a breaker is not designed to be back fed, so while it works it is not great for the breaker and will shorten its life.

A house can be safely ran on a generator by back feeding a receptacle, it will never be as safe or "right" but it can be done. But a true transfer switch has a whole different function.
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Very true .. a transfer switch (real one ) is COSTLY though. Often times more than what you paid for your generator. If you were getting a whole house unit id reccomend doing it all correct and by code etc. I have a military diesel 3k one that puts out actually about 5k and a gas 5k. when im running them portable I do not ground them other than to itself. if you are hooking up near a panel you usually have an existing ground rod nearby somewhere or can run one in the ground pretty easily. big thing is just being smart about it ...... if you backfeed through an outlet its best not to let anyone else run it but you since you know procedure. know your amps and gauge wiring so theres no weakness anywhere to risk fire. Ive done this for a few years with various storms and havent killed a breaker yet, but for $5 bucks or whatever I always keep a few different kinds on hand just incase. whatever you do just make sure your plug at the panel is a female on your cord .. dont want anyone tripping and making a suicide cord flying around lol. its a good investment to get a power conditioner / equalizer too for the main tv. flat panels are the most sensitive but the "dirty voltage" can hurt them over time.
 
A great resi transfer switch will run less than a grand. maybe half that/
If your power conditioner doesnt have a rectifier, heat sink, and harmonic dampener in it and didnt cost a couple grand you bought some good advertising hype
 
Not talking about power conditioning the whole house..again just sensitive items. 200-400 depending on how much of a load you need. Even a UPS backup provides a layer of security more than enough for my peace of mind. Even not far off the main grid the input voltage can be as high as 130 in short spikes, and also jump low. And no im not talking about monster cable and their advertising. This can be argued for years without agreement, but goes back to what are your needs, and what can you afford. All methods work.
 
Digital regulator FTW.
 
shawn said:
Digital regulator FTW.
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If the generator is worth its salt it will have a full wave rectified (dual or three) phase sensing AVR.
Hell the $500 gas model you used to use on the trailer has that, strangely Kohler, Generac and many others dont find it necessary until you get above 100kW.

But...he is talknin about utility spikes best I can tell. And Im not real sure about that. Beyond that, the chance to damage modern electronic at 130vac 1phase is minimal at best.
 
Transfer switches are for starting the generator, sure... but they are also electrically isolating. They isolate the house load panel (or typically sub panel) from utility power so they don't backfeed the utility lines. If you backfeed at 240V, when you get to the utility line you're at 7200V on a typical transformer. Not much current at 7200V, but that's a lot of electrical pressure to hurt a lineman.
 
OK, I am not an electrician, but I have wired some stuff that was passed by an inspector.
So, my plan is this. Wire in a designated outlet just below my main panel. This outlet would back feed through a 20 amp breaker.This outlet will be ONLY for plugging my Generator up. (two male plus) Before plugging in, I would: a. trip main breaker. b. Trip all 220v breakers in the house and main panel. c. Also trip other breakers to minimize use. d. Rotate usage depending on need. Refrigerator would not need to be on all the time, nor would freezer. But if extended outage, I could turn them on to get things back to temp.
Most likely, the only things that would need some constant power would be my heat. (it's Kerosene, so only need power for the fan) and that's only if it's an outage during cold weather. The other would be some lights(low power Fluorescent, should look into LED's)
And my outlet for my computer. So, would this be safe? I would be running my Honda e3000is
 
Chip, that's not the "right" way, but it will certainly work. The one place you might have a problem is that you're working with a 110V generator. As such, it will only energize one leg of the split phase service in the house. What you really need is two separate receptacles, one on each leg, then make up an extension cord that plugs into both of them simultaneously. Similarly, you could make up a 220V plug and run the generator hot to both hot legs in the 220V plug. This works well when re-purposing dryer plugs, etc.

Of course, it's not to code, you might shock yourself or burn down your house, your model may vary, some exclusions may apply, see full contest rules and entry requirements for details.
 
Ahh gotcha on both legs, had not considered that. I don't see where energizing both legs would be an issue, as long as there wasn't a draw to over extend the generator. If it gets over loaded it will go into limp mode.
 
Right, and none of your 220v stuff will work. That might be a problem if you want to run a water heater or well pump, etc.
 
Commenting on Chip's plan... this is "old-school" stuff so I feel very well quaified to comment...

The system you just described has been in my own home for over 20 years now. I have only needed to use it a couple times, but, when needed, it was of the "priceless" category. I have a 5k Generac. I installed a 220v receptacle in the side of the distribution panel. That receptacle goes to a 20a double-breaker. When I need to use it, I first drop the main breaker and actually LOCK it in the OFF position. This is to keep me from "forgetting". I also switch all the other breakers to the OFF position. I then run a cord in from the generator to a small pigtail with two male connectors. This makes my connection to the distribution panel. I do NOT plug into the generator until everthing is hooked up, and I switch the breaker on last (opposite when disconnecting). From the distribution panel I can direct power to where ever I need it, keeping in mind that I can't run everything at once. It works very well. Duke Power can't come in on me due to the main being being locked out, and in turn, I can't backfeed onto a lineman.

Now a concern on your generator... as it appears (from your description) to be 120v only, I am questioning you trying to feed both buses (as you described) in your breaker panel. As a 220v circuit requires two 120v circuits (of opposing phases), I am not so sure what you are proposing is a good idea... especially if your intent is to energize a 220v circuit. I'm not even sure if two 120v circuits of the same phase will power anything. I've been away from this stuff for quite a while now... maybe some pros can chime in on this one.
 
Yeah, I knew that stuff wouldn't work. Really only wanted to have light,. maybe entertain myself on the net, and keep heat. I can cook and shower in the RV if need be. Been luck here as far as power outages, but you never know. I guess it's the Boy Scout in me, just trying to be prepared.
 
Don I will not be attempting to run anything 220v at all. Powering both legs, that go into my home will only serve both sides of my pannel inside.for only 120 breakers
 
Chip,
It will work.
It isn't "right" but it will work. You just ahev to hit 2 receps on different phases.

But..you MUST turn any 220V breaker off, not just not use it, kill those breakers before energizing the generator. Otherwise when you back feed onto the bus the breaker will serve as a connection you will get a buck phase short and the generator will not like it, nor will the breaker in question...and its posisble your panel wouldnt survive either.
 
Ron, YEah I knew that, mentioned that in post 17. But thanks for looking out after me.Having all this set up is probably the only sure fire way to not have a power failure LOL.
 
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