Heat Pump Initial Cost vs Real World Efficiency

[jeepinmatt]

Ive been quoted a few different options for the house we're building. This is complete install cost for Trane units. We need a 1.5 ton upstairs and 2.5 ton on the main floor.
14 SEER (8.2 HSPF) $13564
15 SEER (9.5 HSPF) $16203
16 SEER (9.6 HSPF) $19830
18 SEER (10.0 HSPF) $23710 (1.5 and 3 ton)
20 SEER (10.0 HSPF) $27400 (1.5 and 3 ton)

I know Trane is overpriced, but this is just for the sake of comparison. I'll definitely be getting another quote.

So I'm smart enough to go read charts and graphs and sales literature, but what's the real world difference between different ratings? Our new house is 2x6 exterior walls and spray foam insulation, good windows, and decent doors, so it's built fairly tight. Will I benefit from all the fancy schmancy variable trilinear megadoohickeys?

 

[awheelterd]

Ive been quoted a few different options for the house we're building. This is complete install cost for Trane units. We need a 1.5 ton upstairs and 2.5 ton on the main floor.
14 SEER $13564
15 SEER $16203
16 SEER $19830
18 SEER $23710 (1.5 and 3 ton)
20 SEER $27400 (1.5 and 3 ton)

I know Trane is overpriced, but this is just for the sake of comparison. I'll definitely be getting another quote.

So I'm smart enough to go read charts and graphs and sales literature, but what's the real world difference between different ratings? Our new house is 2x6 exterior walls and spray foam insulation, good windows, and decent doors, so it's built fairly tight. Will I benefit from all the fancy schmancy variable trilinear megadoohickeys?

Fwiw, my guy is putting me in a 16 seer dual fuel. According to his calcs it's the best bang for your buck value, long and short term.

 

[Ron]

Ive been quoted a few different options for the house we're building. This is complete install cost for Trane units. We need a 1.5 ton upstairs and 2.5 ton on the main floor.
14 SEER $13564
15 SEER $16203
16 SEER $19830
18 SEER $23710 (1.5 and 3 ton)
20 SEER $27400 (1.5 and 3 ton)

I know Trane is overpriced, but this is just for the sake of comparison. I'll definitely be getting another quote.

So I'm smart enough to go read charts and graphs and sales literature, but what's the real world difference between different ratings? Our new house is 2x6 exterior walls and spray foam insulation, good windows, and decent doors, so it's built fairly tight. Will I benefit from all the fancy schmancy variable trilinear megadoohickeys?

1- cut all those prices directly in half.
2-start at the bottom for math. It saves $3,000 up front. Without any time value of money, interest bearing or fancy calculation. Most agree systems these days last 10 years max. That's 120 months. At 3k upfront cost it better save 25/month every single month even in low use months and be just as reliable and cheap to repair. Or provide more comfort or you have to get personal satisfaction from bragging to friends about having the most efficient green home ever built.

I'd save my money and spend it on mahogany shelves and leather bound books.

 

[braxton357]

Man, that salesman saw you coming from down the block. You get a uv filter, humidifier, dehumidifier, quietener, loudener, and talking thermostat thrown in there too?

 

[jeepinmatt]

Man, that salesman saw you coming from down the block. You get a uv filter, humidifier, dehumidifier, quietener, loudener, and talking thermostat thrown in there too?

For those prices, better be a lot more than that. Here's the email I sent back to our contractor:
"What was budgeted? This seems astronomically high."

 

[CasterTroy]

Higher seer units will have much higher quality components, dual stage compressors with a variable speed controllers, and strip the humidity on a much broader scale than the 14 seer. This is WHY they cost so much more. It's the components as a WHOLE, and how they work together that really make up the better seer ratings.




The drawback with a very high seer rating will be replacement parts.

1. Will you GET the same compressor if it happens to go out? Or will bubba have a compressor from a 14 seer unit on his truck and now you've compromised your system
2. IF you get the right component, will you get it in a decent amount of time? Does ACR keep that component stocked?


However, these components will be a MUCH better grade and likely far outlast the 14 seer units components (less capaciters...etc that's all the same usually)


Will you see a return on your investment from 20 to 14? Energy costs are pretty dang low still. Cost analysis will likely say "not in the life span of the unit" especially given the 12 yr (optimistic) life span.

 

[1-tonmudder]

For those prices, better be a lot more than that. Here's the email I sent back to our contractor:
"What was budgeted? This seems astronomically high."

cheap ass.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Higher seer units will have much higher quality components, dual stage compressors with a variable speed controllers, and strip the humidity on a much broader scale than the 14 seer. This is WHY they cost so much more. It's the components as a WHOLE, and how they work together that really make up the better seer ratings.

Definitely sounds like more parts and complexity. Why, for example is the dual stage compressor any better than a single stage? I assume it's the same metallugy, tolerances, and clearances, but one is more complicated.

 

[shawn]

Higher seer units will have much higher quality components, dual stage compressors with a variable speed controllers, and strip the humidity on a much broader scale than the 14 seer. This is WHY they cost so much more. It's the components as a WHOLE, and how they work together that really make up the better seer ratings.

This. You're buying user comfort with a higher-end unit, not so much monthly savings. Variable speed fan and variable speed compressor is a big step up.

The SEER rating is just a ratio of how much the unit is "supposed" to use in terms of how much heat/cooling is generated vs how much energy it actually uses. Divide BTU rating by energy consumed and get SEER.

 

[VortecJeep]

I recently had one of our units replaced, both indoor and outdoor unit, plus all of the duct work in the crawlspace replaced. Trane XR16 heatpump. $7409 cash total. The other quote I got was $1500 more than that. I looked at the higher SEER ratings, but couldn't justify it, so I went middle of the road.

 

[CasterTroy]

Why, for example is the dual stage compressor any better than a single stage?

Simply stated, a single stage is either WOT or off. So, you're either cooling like hell, or not cooling at all. This is GREAT on a design day in late July with 95 degree days. But an 82 degree day with 135% humidity it sucks.

Dual stage enables the unit to ramp up how MUCH cooling it can do. Or better yet, how LITTLE cooling you can get and still run the unit. This allows for dehumidification and not just on/off polar blast cooling. When a unit has to constantly cycle you get the makings of the inside of a keurig

 

[Ron]

Simply stated, a single stage is either WOT or off. So, you're either cooling like hell, or not cooling at all. This is GREAT on a design day in late July with 95 degree days. But an 82 degree day with 135% humidity it sucks.

Dual stage enables the unit to ramp up how MUCH cooling it can do. Or better yet, how LITTLE cooling you can get and still run the unit. This allows for dehumidification and not just on/off polar blast cooling. When a unit has to constantly cycle you get the makings of the inside of a keurig

Ignorant question.
If the major benefit is in de-humidification would a compromise not be to install the lower SEER unit and a whole house duct based de-humidifier?

 

[jeepinmatt]

Definitely sounds like more parts and complexity. Why, for example is the dual stage compressor any better than a single stage? I assume it's the same metallugy, tolerances, and clearances, but one is more complicated.

By better I mean, how are the components any higher in quality? I understand the functional differences, but my comment above was in response to:

Higher seer units will have much higher quality components

 

[CasterTroy]

If the major benefit is in de-humidification would a compromise not be to install the lower SEER unit and a whole house duct based de-humidifier?

I see where you're coming from, but a properly sized system will be the MOST effective way to remove humidity. While less efficiently doing so, a single stage, properly sized unit, will still do the job better than a poorly sized unit AND a dehumidifier. Take that step further and Dual stage compressors allow you to have the most control.

By better I mean, how are the components any higher in quality? I understand the functional differences, but my comment above was in response to:

This is one of those things where; I just "know it's better" because of factory tours, seminars, lunch and learns from sales reps, and years of experience....but I can't sit here and list the "72 points of light" that make up all the specific reasons why...because I don't really know the specifics (I can dig thru notes, but it's one of those things you file in your brain under "ok it's better" and then chuck that folder out your ear to make room for useless meme locations)

 

[Ron]

I see where you're coming from, but a properly sized system will be the MOST effective way to remove humidity. While less efficiently doing so, a single stage, properly sized unit, will still do the job better than a poorly sized unit AND a dehumidifier. Take that step further and Dual stage compressors allow you to have the most control.

Im not trying to argue just to Shawn, I swear.
But you added a(n) (imho unnecessary) variable there.
Matt is a Indian, I mean an Engine, I mean he drives a train...or soemthing like that.
Lets assume for a moment he will get the properly sized system.

My question is why pay $27,000 for the bees knees system, when he could instead pay $14,000 for a properly sized system that isnt as efficient and compensate for his crappy system with a $1,000 dehumidifcation system and have the same results at $15,000.

 

[CasterTroy]

Im not trying to argue just to Shawn, I swear.

And I don't sell Trane equipment, or I could likely give you and Matt your much needed fodder FOR a Shawn worthy argument.

I

My question is why pay $27,000 for the bees knees system, when he could instead pay $14,000 for a properly sized system that isnt as efficient and compensate for his crappy system with a $1,000 dehumidifcation system and have the same results at $15,000.

I'm pretty sure a 10K Chicago electric generator will also carry the load that the 10k Onan generator will as well, for.... for less

In other words...hey, if you can make that work for you....go for it

 

[336wheeler]

If you have the time, make a model of it. BeOpt is a free residential energy modeling software by NREL; make a “shoebox” model of your house and run a 14 SEER as a baseline, then re-run it as 20 SEER proposed.

Also I don’t see anything for HSPF values; over an annual this could make as much difference as the SEER value.


Let’s spitball using some high level numbers.....

Your utility bill is assumed to be $180/mo.

30% of this is assumed to be HVAC or $54/mo.

Let’s say the SEER difference costs $14000 on the initial.

Let’s also assume that your $54/mo HVAC baseline cost gets improved by 30%, for an average cost of $38/mo. An operational cost difference of $16/mo.

So the $14,000 initial adder would take 875 months for a simple ROI.

 

[awheelterd]

I'm pretty sure a 10K Chicago electric generator will also carry the load that the 10k Onan generator will as well, for.... for less

In other words...hey, if you can make that work for you....go for it

 

[jeepinmatt]

Thanks @CasterTroy, you're the best!

If you have the time, make a model of it. BeOpt is a free residential energy modeling software by NREL; make a “shoebox” model of your house and run a 14 SEER as a baseline, then re-run it as 20 SEER proposed.

Also I don’t see anything for HSPF values; over an annual this could make as much difference as the SEER value.


Let’s spitball using some high level numbers.....

Your utility bill is assumed to be $180/mo.

30% of this is assumed to be HVAC or $54/mo.

Let’s say the SEER difference costs $14000 on the initial.

Let’s also assume that your $54/mo HVAC baseline cost gets improved by 30%, for an average cost of $38/mo. An operational cost difference of $16/mo.

So the $14,000 initial adder would take 875 months for a simple ROI.

Get that useful shit outta here, we gotta get back to arguing!

(But really, thanks for the useful input, I will look that up!)

 

[CasterTroy]

(But really, thanks for the useful input, I will look that up!)

Oh HE gets a thank you...but I say the same damn thing

Cost analysis will likely say "not in the life span of the unit" especially given the 12 yr (optimistic) life span.

And I get "Well what the hell do YOU know"

 

[jeepinmatt]

Also, updated the first post with HSPF values.

 

[jeepinmatt]

Oh HE gets a thank you...but I say the same damn thing



And I get "Well what the hell do YOU know"

You must have missed it up above the part I quoted

 

[CasterTroy]

You must have missed it up above the part I quoted

yeah..missed that part (that part you edited in a minute ago )

 

[awheelterd]

So, with all the arguing, has anyone said what the break-over SEER number is? My guy said 16, I'm curious what everyone else thinks it is. Or is it just dependent on your particular situation? My guy modeled my house, windows, southern exposure, insulation, etc to come up with mine.

 

[UTfball68]

I have no idea what half of you are saying...but I know when my folks unit went out 5 years ago or so...I bought a 'bigger one' on ebay for $3600, put it on the pad the old one was on, paid an HVAC dude $500 to hook it up and magically their house has and does stay cool in the summer and warm in the winter. Their total power bill is under $200 on a 2 story 2000sq/ft house.