Home builders, engineer types and bored people!?

[SHINTON]

Hey folks, I wanted to pick your brain a bit about house building / plans, trusses and such?! We have been going around and around on buying (and restoring) vs building and back to building now.

We are looking at building in the next 2 years, "custom home builders" are all over the place, pricing at Schumacher Homes seems to grow exponentially and modern home design has gotten crazy with all the roof angles and I am sure that is part of the $$$$$.

My goal is a rectangle, 1 story, 2500 heated square foot home, 2 car garage (side facing) with a simple front porch and covered rear porch. But "all" the home design websites now are filled with houses that have what seems like excessive roof designs and instead of 4 walls in rectangle you have 10+ changes, etc.

Getting to actual questions instead of moaning and groaning. I am "assuming" that going old school ranch, square, 4 walls means I am saving money on the construction that I then can spend on my interior (and exterior / brick, etc.)

Question #1, is that assumption correct, if so why is "everyone" doing this, seems like someone should be competing on price here? There is a local builder, 2500 sf L shaped all brick, one story, I am hearing $275k (plus say $30k for lot prep) My goal is to be closer to $250k built but open to education!

Question #2, I have drawn out (on Excel spreadsheet, ha!) a basic plan, I think it is currently 45x66. Is there a width / truss size that is "standard" aka cheaper that I need to stay within? My lot is forever long so easier to build longer than fatter!? (So 44' or 40' or 48' etc...)

Question #3, is there a huge markup/cost diff to put in a squared out section in trusses so I could have storage up there? Am I compromising something else related to #2?

(Grid is 1 foot square, and also trying to build big enough for wheel chair access in bathrooms, future proofing the home for ourselves and parents, etc)

That will start me out, I know there is a huge community here with a ton of information. I have revised these plans considerably over last 8 years due to feedback from here. (Eliminated basement, building red iron type garage/workshop, less grading, building more on flat land, and recently backed off buying a home because the back yard was just not suited for workshop etc.) So thanks in advance for the upcoming feedback and previous input!!

Sam

 

[Fabrik8]

Home design with all the crazy roof angles is a crutch that results from making the house look fancy without proper design. Once you add all the fancy stuff, getting the roof to look right is a lost cause and you end up with shitloads of intersecting roof planes and pointy roof nubs that look like a wizard's hat. If you notice how many architects are designing houses with roofs like that, the answer is almost none because they know better. Any "custom" home builder can crank out a poorly designed house; that's their bread-and-butter.

I'm glad you don't feel the need to build a complex house for the sake of building a complex house. This country has a rich history of very good ranch house designs (mostly in the '50s and '60s), so the only thing stopping people from doing it today is just current trends and current tastes.

I absolutely hate the McMansion-style houses with multiple overlapping gables, 5 different types of siding, and ridiculous rooflines that make no sense at all. I really love ranch houses.

I know I didn't say anything helpful, I just wanted to lend some moral support because you're not building an ugly contemporary house.

 

[Tom@Hilltop_Machine]

We were going to build, but for an average home built is running 150 dollars per square foot. Labor and materials are high right now. Cheaper to buy an already built home.

 

[rockcity]

Hmm. If tract home builders can make a profit selling brand new homes at $110/ft, lot included, you should be able to build a simple rectangle home for less.

Most custom home builders are going to give ya a per foot price until they actually spend some time doing a proper take-off.

I could probably build that house in Greenville for around $65/ft, but Pitt County is a different market with sales and subs.


I’d find a nice house for cheap and renovate it however you like. If you like the simple ranch style, renovations should be reasonably easy. Easy usually = affordable.

 

[Fabrik8]

Hmm. If tract home builders can make a profit selling brand new homes at $110/ft, lot included, you should be able to build a simple rectangle home for less.

They get that price from high build volume and shitty construction quality. If you want a one-off home, or good build quality, more money is needed. None of this is anything new. If you hear anything similar to the phrase "the most home for your money", run away.

I know it's not intuitive, but an architect can help you save money by making the best use of the available space by having a good layout and design.

 

[Loganwayne]

We were going to build, but for an average home built is running 150 dollars per square foot. Labor and materials are high right now. Cheaper to buy an already built home.

Cost per square foot depends on where your at. Asheville area is pushing 250+ sf right now


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[Loganwayne]

Trusses over 50ft in bottom cord length will be bumped up to 2x6 top and bottom. I’m assuming this is a code since 3 different truss places quotes this way. That’s a pretty good cost bump. “Lofting” a truss doesn’t cost much extra but may not be possible, you’d just have to talk to the truss people.


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[Croatan_Kid]

Screw it...get a modular or a steel building

 

[kaiser715]

Building is the most fun you'll have, and you can truly have a one-of-a-kind house, not a cookie cutter. Better have a strong marriage, and both willing to compromise and stick to your limits. When you are writing out a 30-50k check every month, its easy to say "well it's only another thousand bucks to do it that way"...before you know it, you're 30 over budget.

That said, we kept a sharp eye on costs and budget. We made a few additions and substitutions (like a raised concrete patio instead of wood deck) that added several thousand, but pretty much stayed true to our plans and budget.

All said and done (and allowing for those changes), contractor came in right at his estimate (we did time and materials). Right at $107/sf for construction. Went with a local one-man contractor (that I've known for 30 years). Subs everything, but did pick up a hammer once or twice.

House plan looks livable....but I would try and re-locate that half-bath....nothing like hearing sound effects from uncle bob in the middle of thanksgiving dinner.

 

[broncosbybart]

48' is the max width you can use 2x4 top and bottom chords on. Given the option, I would run 2x6's on anything over 40' because they can handle more abuse while unloading and at the job site.

By attic storage, do you mean living area, or just attic space? The loading is different between the two. An attic storage truss will be a bit more costly. A livable area attic truss could about double the price. No way to know for sure without getting a quote.

Schumacher homes are the worst for whoring their jobs out to the lowest bidder. You get a lot of house for the money from them, but expect it to be a cheaply built piece of garbage.

Lastly, Im not a fan of your floor plan and a square house just screams 'inexpensive'. I'd make the house look as fancy as you can given your budget, for resale value.

 

[drkelly]

Building a house was the worst experience of my life. I would buy an existing home.

 

[Lizooki]

Personally would not have a Shumacher built cookie cutter house.
IMHO, best bet would be to find a small local homebuilder ..... like I said, my opinion.
One thing about all those ranchers built in the 50s & 60s .... they will still be in use when all the mcmansions are long gone.
We bought our 1965 built ranch 13-14 yrs ago and walked through the place with the inspector ..... he was in awe of the construction ... materials and techiques.


Matt

 

[SHINTON]

The "Room in Attic" is the truss design I am looking for, basically it will just be for storage purposes, it always seems crazy to me to NOT do this unless the cost factor is just prohibitive. https://www.homestratosphere.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/38_Truss-Configurations2.jpg

What seems a bit crazy is that Rob can envision this in his area at $65 sf but 3-4 hours away it could be 150% - 200% or more!! Some of you that are builders, is this a "waste of time" to approach several local contractors and ask them to work up a price? I hate to spend someone's time and efforts to price something without some form of compensation?

One of the neighborhoods we love in our area is full of 1 story "ranch" homes built in the 60s-70s on .75 to 1 acre lots. That is what I was asking about a few weeks ago and it is still on the radar, but thinking we look for one of those that WE could buy and renovate ourselves. The one we looked at pretty seriously was awesome, but if I am spending that much cash I should wait and build it exactly the way we want instead of compromising just to get what was for sale NOW.

Thanks on input so far, def taking it in, probably flipping that 1/2 bath based on post, good call there!! I realize this might be 'boring' but hoping for stately and will add some "Craftsman" styling to the various posts on the porches, etc.

This is a picture of the home we LOVE, and will go for a similar look at feel. Stepped up roof will likely not happen and wrapping those columns a bit diff, coloring, etc.

 

[CasterTroy]

@kaiser715 just came off a project of epic proportions (find his build thread)

@drkelly is a few years settled, but his experience is still fresh

@jeepinmatt is balls deep currently

@hunterdan may be dead now as a result of building

Those are just the ones I can think of off the cuff who have built/are building. Several on here are renovators. Of course you've seen the great adventures of @trailhugger and @shawn

I myself have gone the renovation/gut/repurpose with my 1962 ranch that was built by a home builder originally for HIMSELF. I found out he was quite ahead of his time and anal as hell...plus afraid of seismic/hurricane/apoc. 2x10 floor joists on 8" centers with every 10th one doubled. Engineered trusses, with a center truss running perpendicular so there were no load bearing walls inside. I did an addition/total renovation in 2004. Sadly the state decided that they wanted my house for the 52 bypass and took it in 2011




The contractor who won the bid to tear it down kept telling me all day "I lost my ass on this one" due to how difficult it was to tear down. I had never seen a house torn down, so I didn't have any frame of reference. But it took 4 days to tear down and clear off.

Anyway, I'm kind of "in the business" so I should know better, but we are about to embark on building. Haven't hammered down a plan/style yet but we know what we like. I'm having to design the house for the site/exposures AND please my wife. Which....IMHO is the hardest part of building (keeping HER happy)
I'm not a creative person. I'm WAY too analytical so my "designs" don't really meet with her approval. I may have to get help....either an architect with enough vision to make her happy or a therapist (for me, before the breakdown)

Anyway...take all the advice you can from those who have lived thru it an stayed married. It's one of the hardest thing you will go thru as a couple (of course that doesn't involve cancer, death, something happening to your child...etc i.e. another BEING)

to answer your questions (as best I can) in a completely indirect approach:

Right now you'll be lucky to secure ANY builder outside of calling Shugert/Stafford/Schumacher and getting a cookie cutter home. I'm finding in commercial construction, ALL the good ones have sunk their teeth into projects where they can make money and aren't interested in small "filler" work like in the past. Home builders are right there as well. It's not so much the GC as the subs. The GOOD framers, PM&E, masons....etc they are booked as far as 2 years right now.
And lets face it, what you have here isn't really a "custom"

Lastly, Im not a fan of your floor plan and a square house just screams 'inexpensive'

This. With YOUR design, you really could find any ranch home built in the 60's/70's, gut it, and adapt this plan. That's not meant to be insulting, it means you have much more opportunity to find an existing home in the right location with huge potential to MAKE it what you want. But I do have a few concerns.

2 areas that stick out right away:

You really need to create the mud room entry in lifesize scale. Whether you use boxes, or plywood, or whatever you have. You really need to experience how tight that space will be before you commit to it.

Also, the bedroom swastika entry, it's gonna be HELL getting mattress, table, dresser in the 1st bedroom/office.

I would consider:

 

[LBZ_Duramax]

We built in 2013 and I have no desire to do it again. My house is 2250 sqft on bottom with 720 sqft bonus room above garage. Full bath in bonus, 4 bed 2.5 bath down stairs. 30x30 garage and estimated 1200 sqft floored attic space. All stick built. I was in it for around $90 per sqft including Garage/Porches/40x40 concrete pad outside garage.

 

[Andy J.]

I’m up to my eyeballs on my second full house renovation, doing all the work myself. I’ve never built from scratch, so take that for what it’s worth, but I have lived in quite a few houses in a variety of styles. My .02:

I think I would incorporate the laundry room and the mud room into a single room.

I like having master closet access from the bathroom so you don’t have to clothes prep prior to shower and you don’t wake up your wife running around looking for things in the bedroom. I don’t think I would want any other access. Plus more doors equals less hanging space.

You need more counter space in the master bath and bonus for a legit water closet. That way you can poop in peace while she’s getting ready.

The work triangle looks like it might be big in the kitchen if you consider the oven location. I’m not sure that I like the mud room door being right in the middle of your workspace there.

The jack and Jill bath is only accessible from the two bedrooms, so that limits bedroom 1’s access to a full bath. Also, I’ve had a jack and Jill bathroom between two bedrooms and I really disliked it. With that same space, I think you could get in a bath with a more efficient layout that is accessible from the ‘hallway’.

 

[rockcity]

Ironically @Andy J. is working on a full renovation as am I and once I looked at the layout, pointed out the exact same things as I was going to mention.

Also, check your scale. If your grids are scaled at 1’, you will need to adjust your appliances (stove, fridge, W/D,etc) as stoves are 30” wide and a 24” sink in that island will likely leave you with regrets for years to come.

 

[kaiser715]

A bunch of random thoughts on the floor plan while I watch TV, and a few random questions:

Basement, crawl, slab??

I already said I don't like the 'too public' guest/half bath. Think about making space attached to the mudroom for a 1/2 or 3/4 bath (shower stall). That's what we did....laundry room is off the mud room/back entry. In the laundry room, we have a pocket door, hiding a toilet and shower stall (sink is in laundry room counter). Real handy when you come in dirty and need to drop muddy/greasy clothes and hop in the shower, or just come in and use facilities without tracking thru the whole house. Already saved me a lecture or three.

Are kids involved, moved out, non-existent? I'd do a full/oversize bathroom off the hallway, and more closet space in the bedrooms. Jack/jill would probably be a PIA for overnight guests, probably older kids too. Only worked for the Brady Bunch because that was make-believe.

Think about growing old, or getting injured/incapacitated, temporary or permanent....can you get into the house (preferably thru garage) without any steps? Small ramp? 36" doors everywhere? Room to turn a wheelchair around in the bathroom?

If kids/teenagers....are y'all going to do all their laundry for them, or let them learn to fend for themselves -- invading your private space in the process? What if a house guest needs to wash something?

Look for pinch points...places where 2 people are apt to occupy at the same time and be in each others way...like the mud room...there are just two of us, but lots of times, going out at the same time -- putting on shoes, coat, whatever.

I'd rethink the step-in closets in the 2 bedrooms...don't have the usable space as a walk-in closet, and to gain just a foot or two of handing space to the side, you end up with a dead corner.

Screen in the back porch ... that's our favorite room by far. And put a propane connect in for a heater. Uncovered/open deck area for a grill?

Go with 48-50" between island and cabinets. Makes it a lot easier for 2 to work in the kitchen. Standard is 42", but you'll bump butts more, or don't have good room to squeeze past open fridge door, dishwasher, range door. (cabinet installers didn't look at their prints, and installed ours at 42, because that's what they always do...had to get them to come back and move them).

I see one toilet, one shower, one tub, two sinks that may have water lines on an outside wall. For the once-every-2-or-3-years super freeze we have have in NC...is freezing pipes a concern to you? Our last house was never a problem (no plumbing on outside walls). 2 sinks in our current house could possibly be like the house I grew up in...in a really cold snap over several days, may have to keep the base cabinet doors open on them.

I like the double ovens, and regret that's one thing we cut out. But a tremendous price difference to do it....standalone range is much cheaper than stovetop, vent hood, and double oven (or even a single wall-mount oven), plus more $$ into cabinetry.

Make that front porch 8' deep front to back, not 6'...makes it feel a lot more open and usable. If 6', you'll hardly ever walk to that far end.

If you have kids....where is the TV going? Will it be on the living room wall that is shared with the back corner bedroom? Will TV sound/noise be a problem after bedtime??

Do you put up food? Somewhere for a deep freeze?

How long is the vent pipe for the clothes dryer going to end up being?

Think about breaking that master closet up into 2 separate closets. The way it is, over the years, you'll find that the point of demarcation between his/hers will not move in your favor.

Linen closet? (especially for kids/guest rooms and baths).



I was bored....

 

[jeepinmatt]

I'm so pissed with my current construction project that I would not be upset if this incoming hurricane blew it all down so I could start over. Make sure you have a good contractor if you are not able to keep a close set of eyes on everything. That's all I feel like typing about it for now. Maybe in a week or two I'll have cooled off enough on the topic to throw in some more useful thoughts.

 

[kaiser715]

Make sure you have a good contractor if you are not able to keep a close set of eyes on everything.

One part of why we had such a good experience with our build was that my wife and I are currently not working. Somewhere between taking a sabbatical from work, and fully retired, just haven't decided yet what to call it. So we had plenty of time to be onsite as needed, run all over tarnation looking at materials, design stuff, etc, etc. Hundreds of bookmarks. Hundreds at least of saved jpegs of things we liked. Hours of sorting thru all that and deciding together what we liked.

So many houses we looked at (spec houses on market, various contractors at various stages of completion, houses on the market) were white walls, white trim, etc. Easy way out. Or at least the same color thru out the house. Gray. Pale yellow. Pale green. Everywhere. Kept seeing the same tile every where we went, because everybody went to the same cheap place -- Lowes Hardware (no HD here) to pick their tile.

A lot of couples (according to stories from my contractor and subs) work more like "oh, I forgot you told me two weeks ago I needed to pick the bathroom tile...I know you needed it yesterday, but I'll rush by Lowes after work tomorrow and pick something out". We had a lot of stuff selected, already bought, or at a minimum a good idea of what we liked weeks or months before even being asked for it.

You have to have plenty of time for shopping/looking/picking out stuff.

Or can do like one house the subs were talking about....client had interior decorator pick paint, tile, etc. He approved samples. But once it was on the wall, floor, whatever....they didn't like it....so he'd have it re-done (at his expense). Long, hard way to make decisions.

 

[SHINTON]

A few follow ups and design changes based on comments from above! I flipped the 1/2 bath to the hallway with the bathrooms. I opened the mudroom out to 4'x5' to give it a bit more room.

Master closet / access to W/Dyer, "weird layout." I actually had created a much more squared out version (with his/her), this was left over from my re-design of a Schumacher home (Charleston A) and my wife actually likes the weird zig zag and some pocket doors to wash room, etc. This will probably change a bit in final design with contractor/architect, etc. Dual vanities at 36" each and a giant tub is her dealio there and mine is "giant" shower, tiled out and I want want of those steam machines built in, that is a "must" for me.

No kids!! The reason for Jack/Jill is this, it was actually suggested by architect student as the purpose of those bedrooms is for our aging parents. Think about this, taking care of mom/dad, having to shower them (wheelchair roll in shower there) and this allows you to wheel them directly back into their bedroom without having to go into the "public" area of the hallway. So really a privacy thing and that made a lot of sense to me and I can see how that would be more useful in elder care situation? That is why there is also 60" of space (sorta) in that bathroom for ADA / able to turn wheel chairs around, etc. Same as my master bath too, I want to live in this house forever. (Built on slab, no steps coming in/out from garage either for same reason / wheelchairs)

1/2 bath has everything guests should need, toilet and sink and if in a party situation we need multiple bathrooms someone can just go through a bedroom. The privacy issue was more important than the occasional need of extra toilet in party situation?

Closets are all subject to change, really just placeholders, "realistic" sizes would be inserted by architect/designer. BTW we met with young lady graduating from FTCC, she charges $17 an hour, about 20-30 hours for full on design, plans, VR walk through, etc. In NC you do not have to be a licensed architect (for good or bad...) and she has the skills to take this and make it a true/real design but that is part of the reason for this thread. Input on things like Trusses, how big a realistic width is, etc.

Same with estimated sizes on the sinks, ranges and all that, I just built in 1' increments, in real life we know that inches are more appropriate in final design.

I walked through one of my bedrooms the other night and I am re-thinking 15x12, the 12' side is too narrow imho, maybe 13-14 or more? I might steal some space from the 5' wide hallway/foyer, would like to shrink the house a bit even, heck if I get down from 2500 to 2250, in theory at $100 a foot that is $25k!?

BTW, the blue on back porch is 8x8 for hottub, leaving room around it but pretty firm we want one and "under roof" so we can enjoy even in rain, etc.

https://www.schumacherhomes.com/house-plans/car/charleston-a/ (This is the original plan we started at, squaring it out more, etc)

 

[kaiser715]

Good changes!

And good reasoning on the J/J bath.

 

[VortecJeep]

City water or well?
If on a well, leave budget for whole house filter and water softener depending on the water coming out of the well. There is a hugely noticeable difference in our well water if the softener is bypassed or not. Some wells don't need it, some do.

Specify that all showers/tubs have their own isolation valves. Looks like you will have closets backing up to the showers, that is the perfect place to put them if you are on a slab. If crawlspace, you can put them underneath. I recently had a pipe break feeding our downstairs tub and no isolation valves. I had to shut off water to the entire house.

Specify plenty of electrical outlets in the garage. The house we sold last year was built in 2005 and only had 1 outlet in the entire garage. The house we own now was built in 1985 and only has 1 outlet in the entire garage.
Also specify an outlet on the kitchen island. Our last house had an island with no outlet. Would have been nice to have an outlet.
Specify at least one outlet on both porches.

Where is your waterheater going? If in the garage, that will take up about 4'x4'.

Where will the charcoal grill go? I would have a small concrete pad off the back covered porch for that. but that could be added later.

 

[SHINTON]

City water and in theory city sewer, we have been waiting 8 years now, we bought the land 10 years ago to build on...perked for 4 bedroom home. Hoping to do "on demand" (endless) hot water heater dealio as the wifes usage for the giant bath tub uses up our entire tank it seems and do not expect to use LESS in the future. No gas on the street so will either have to use electric to power this "unlimited hot water heater" thingamabob or get propane tank to bury in the yard, etc.